• kevin@programming.dev
      131·
      11 个月前

      Yep, you send me html, my browser can interpret it any way that I want it to. If I want to ignore all of the image and script tags, I can. I don’t need Chrome or even Chromium. As Stallman says, you should know what is running on your system.

      • voidMainVoid@lemmy.world
        181·
        11 个月前

        That doesn’t mean his strstegy and approach is good.

        Who cares? Whether or not Stallman is a likeable person isn’t what’s important. His ideas are.

        • 0x4E4F@lemmy.rollenspiel.monster
          6·
          11 个月前

          The way he presents them and approaches certain subjects is what’s offputting. He’s got this black and white atitude towards the world and how things work, when in reality, everything is just a shade of gray.

            • 0x4E4F@lemmy.rollenspiel.monster
              101·
              11 个月前

              He says IoT devices are bad. He says most Linux distros are bad just cuz they don’t use everything GPL licensed in them. Says don’t use this, don’t use that, yet the alternatives to what he proposes are… just no usable in the 21st century. Read pages in plain HTML, yeah right 😒.

              It’s the lingo he uses, he marks everything as bad, except for GNU or GPL licensed software. And that is off putting to most people and is why many new projects don’t even use the GPL any more, they use MIT or BSD quite more often. The complete lack of any legal support for GPL projects from the FSF is also another reason. “There are just too many, we don’t have enough lawers”. Have you ever thought about, IDK, paying those people? Like you win one lawsuit, make a deal with the owner of the licensed work for him/her to invest part of the winning over to the FSF in order to actually pay these lawers and other people involved in the process. Do the same with every case, and you have yourself a sustainable system. No one wins this way, except those who infrindged the GPL license.

              My 2 cents… doesn’t mean that I’m right, but these are one of my personal reasons why I steer away from the FSF and RMS. These people are stuck in bitterness and grudges, no real insentive to offer a viable alternative whatsoever. It’s like the Pale Moon project, except PM is much worse.

              • verdigris@lemmy.ml
                6·
                11 个月前

                That’s the price of internal consistency. Nothing you say is an argument against any of his points, you just don’t want to give up the comforts you’ve gotten used to over the last decades. I get it, I don’t want to either, but our lack of commitment is precisely why companies are able to abuse users so freely.

                • 0x4E4F@lemmy.rollenspiel.monster
                  22·
                  11 个月前

                  He’s not giving viable alternatives! He just says “don’t use this, don’t do that”. That’s not constructive at all, just the opposite.

                  Times have changed, people change, technology changes. I was against using a smart device up until about 3 or 4 years ago, until I realized how way way behind I was behind everyone and how practical it can be. While everyone was just carrying around their phone and took pics of things that they needed to remember, I had to do the same with a camera… not to mention I had to remember to bring it with me every time I might need it (and you can’t always know upfront if you’re gonna need it or not). On the other hand, my phone is always with me, regardless if I need a camera or not.

                  This is just an example, there are so many other examples that make life easier. RMS and the FSF has nothing to offer, nothing to put on the table as a viable alternative, except “don’t use that”. They could have so much money flowing into the FSF just by copyright lawsuits, they could practically be swimming in money, but no, they decide to do everything on a volentary basis. You can’t win if the playing field is always tilted towards the corps. You can only win if you play with their rules, and their rules are, invest money! They can have enough money to invest in devs as well, devs that will probably make a viable alternative of an OS to actually run on phones and be completely open sources, but… no, that’s against their practices and beliefs 😒.

                  Well, I’m sorry but, you don’t offer anything, just forbid things. Maybe I really don’t want to use this or that technology, but it makes my life easier, so I’d rather use it than not 🤷. Saying “don’t do this, don’t do that” is the exact same mentality that PM has regarding stuff that doesn’t work with the browser. “Just don’t visit those sites”. What? It’s a browser, it fails at it’s primary purpose, to browse websites. I’m sorry, but that is unacceptable. When your product doesn’t fulfill it’s primary purpose and your only reaction is “just don’t do that”, you need to seriously rethink what you’re doing and in which direction this project is going.

  • Zinggi57@lemmy.world
    2081·
    11 个月前

    I think a lot of people here don’t understand the danger of this fully and dismiss it with “Just use Firefox, problem solved”.
    Unfortunately, once this becomes widely available, that is once Chrome ships it, websites will start to use it.
    Maybe Amazon will just not sell to you anymore when you’re browsing with Firefox?
    Maybe YouTube wont serve any videos if you’re using Linux?
    Your bank will certainly implement this and only allow Windows 11 with Edge or some shit like that.
    Once this is implemented, we will all suffer, even if we’re using better alternatives right now.

    • Ember Ushi@sh.itjust.works
      1124·
      11 个月前

      Your bank will certainly implement this

      My brother in Christ, it was 2020 before my bank supported passwords longer than 8 characters. We have 30 or 40 years before we need to worry about the banks.

      • vaultdweler13@lemmy.world
        34·
        11 个月前

        Some banks are still running windows 98 internally, admitedly so long as said system isnt connected to the internet it should be fine.

      • Da_Boom@iusearchlinux.fyi
        10·
        11 个月前

        Have you ever rooted an android phone?

        The google SafteyNet Attestation is the precursor to browser DRM. It’s essentially phone DRM.

        There are many banks that have apps that require you to pass at least the basic level attestation, if not the CTS profile matching that fails the moment you modify any system level resources, even the bootloader

        luckily you can force disable CTS so it falls back on the basic level, for most apps at least. You will never have access to Google or Samsung pay though, as it actually knows your phone model should support CTS and will autofail if it no longer reports that it does.

        Alongside that apps like Pokemon GO and Netflix also require at least basic attestation to function - demonstrating the DRM and anticheat capabilities of such a system.

          • Da_Boom@iusearchlinux.fyi
            1·
            11 个月前

            Nah, I’m still running a stock ROM on a pixel 3a. Looking at this guide, it looks like this tool is dead. So unless it works on android 12, I can’t use it.

            Enabling strict denylist actually causes my phone to break, it will randomly cause my phone to freeze up, and fail to load on phone unlock to the point I have to go into safe boot to disable my Magisk modules, only then will it boot correctly. - maybe I’m denying the wrong system apps for strict mode to work. I have still added apps to the denylist, however.

            Im currently using universal Safetynet Fix to pass basic Attestation, and the only thing that fails to work is google wallets “tap to pay” feature. Which doesn’t matter as my NFC reader is broken in any case.

            • CumBroth@discuss.tchncs.de
              1·
              11 个月前

              Oh, I didn’t notice it’s dead. I just had it bookmarked because I remember spending a lot of time trying all sorts of workarounds before it and none of them ever worked (for CTS).

              I used this for Android 11; there’s a good chance it’ll still work for that version. But like I said, I ended up not needing it anyway - my phone doesn’t even have NFC! I think I mostly just did it as a FU to Google rather than for actual utility. :D

              Just thought it worth mentioning that there are/were workarounds for CTS. Don’t know how things are now on Android 12 and 13.

        • nudny ekscentryk@szmer.info
          3·
          11 个月前

          I find it funny how the most root-resistant app I’ve ever encountered is McDonald’s coupons app. I can trick Google Pay into working on my rooted phone, I tricked Revolut and two national banks. Heck, even my government-issued digital ID was tricky but I eventually got it working despite root and unlocked bootloader, both of which it didn’t like. But McDonald’s? None of the workarounds work whatsoever .

          • CheshireSnake@iusearchlinux.fyi
            2·
            11 个月前

            I’m rooted and on LOS and can use any app I need (including banking apps, paypal, and netflix - i don’t use samsung/google pay). The only app i can’t get to work is one stupid food delivery app. It’s weird af.

      • JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl
        2·
        11 个月前

        Yes, US banks.

        Banks in europe are much more up to date with tech.

        They have APIs to sink transactions with external providers like nordigen API.

        They have 2FA that is linked to your national identity card which is chipped

        Nationally used apps that are universal 2FA linked to national IDs that banks, medical, and government services all tap into

        Everything is contactless payment nowadays, the US just recently started contactless cards

        Inter-bank transfers without external apps like venmo

        There are MANY problems with EU people getting their banks to work on a rooted phone.

        They will absolutely implement DRM if someone sells the bullshit to them under the illusion of “safety.”

        Hell, the US had handwritten “vaccine cards” for covid while European nations even had open source user spinoffs on nationally funded apps linked to national IDs to manage COVID vaccination and testing passes.

      • macintosh@lemmy.world
        11·
        11 个月前

        If we lived in a sane country all 4 major tech companies would have already been brought to court over this in like, 2016. (Microsoft for the second time…)

        • Nowyn@sopuli.xyz
          1·
          11 个月前

          To be fair to America, I don’t think there are any sane countries left. Finland had an actual neo-Nazi as minister and while it didn’t last longer than Truss or even half of it, the party that is ministerial party is still there with similar ideas. They just had forethought to not write 14/88 in an old electoral ad. We are tied for first place still in the least corrupt countries and 5th in most democratic countries.

    • Matt@lemmy.world
      14·
      11 个月前

      Technically the idea is that if Chrome has barely any market share (will never happen, but let’s pretend), they cannot implement this as it will anger and lock too many users out of day to day life.

      However…

      With Google Search and YouTube being by far the most 2 popular websites in the world, I think they still could. The vast majority of people would never give those up and if they’re told to use another program to access them, they absolutely will, meaning in an ideal world with a browser competition, they can easily destroy it immediately.

      • Regelfall@feddit.de
        16·
        11 个月前

        Google search has become very bad and is easily replaced by basically any search engine. YouTube is still unparalleled though.

    • Jentu@lemmy.film
      142·
      11 个月前

      Would apple just roll over on this? Or would they fight to make sure safari is also an option to freely use the internet (or at least severely limiting apples ability to do something similar) And websites that depend on ads, the number of Firefox and safari users have to be greater than the number of users who use ad-blockers. So wouldn’t it negatively affect ad income on websites if they implemented it and cut out all non-chromium browsers?

    • llcoolvm@feddit.de
      5·
      11 个月前

      Did Firefox even say that they would not implement it as well? Are there any informations on that?

    • rasikww@lemmy.world
      4·
      11 个月前

      Doesn’t that also mean they lose customers or possible transactions which could have made them money?

        • dukk@programming.dev
          518·
          11 个月前

          I think he means Firefox is not Chromium-based; Chrome is a proprietary code base, no one can access it besides internal Google employees. Chromium, on the other hand, is open source, and is what browsers such as Edge, Brave and Opera are based off of. Chrome is also based off Chromium, it’s the closed source browser Google distributes. Think of Chromium as Android, and the Pixel UI as Chrome. So no, I doubt he means Firefox is Chrome.

          Edit: seeing from the other comments, downvotes, and that the comment has been edited, he most likely made a typo and typed “Firefox is chromium.”

          Edit 2: Mistakenly said that Chromium was what Firefox was based off of when I meant to say Brave. My bad. I’m well aware Firefox isn’t Chromium-based(I use it for that reason), I was just confused as to why this person was saying he meant Firefox was Chrome, when the comment read “firefox is not chromium”. I later realized(in the above edit) that they must have written “firefox is chromium”, before editing it to “firefox is not chromium” after realizing he messed the comment up.

      • FluffyToaster621@lemm.ee
        44·
        11 个月前

        Firefox uses their own engine IIRC, that’s why more people should be using it so we can get some competition with Chromium.

        • Flaky@iusearchlinux.fyi
          196·
          11 个月前

          I think the management’s recent decisions, as well as the removal/lack of power-user features for those users, have moved a lot of people away from Firefox, myself included. They really need to focus on providing really good software, not get caught up in trying to chase trends or forcing services people don’t want. This WIRED article does a good job explaining the issues.

          I am keeping an eye on Pulse Browser, which is an experimental fork of Firefox with uBlock Origin pre-installed and some UI customisations. They’ve got a sidebar with “web panels” very much like Vivaldi’s Panels, and they’ve got vertical tabs like Edge. People also seem to be posting suggestions to their discussion page on GitHub. It’s early days, but if they listen and try to implement some of the suggested features to their best ability, it could be a much better Firefox than Firefox itself.

            • Flaky@iusearchlinux.fyi
              4·
              11 个月前

              Oh, I support Gecko. More browser engines to compete against Chromium the better. I just can’t support Firefox in its current state right now. Thankfully, Pulse seems to be picking up the slack in places.

          • FluffyToaster621@lemm.ee
            9·
            11 个月前

            Thank you for mentioning a non-chromium browser with vertical tabs, genuinely something FF would benefit from.

            • Flaky@iusearchlinux.fyi
              4·
              11 个月前

              No problem! Tree Style Tabs might also do the job on base Firefox with nested tabs, but it’s not as streamlined as Pulse or Edge, especially if you want to hide the tab bar (you have to edit .CSS files).

              edit: okay enabling both features, moving the main side panel to the right and enable tab collapsing makes a great space-saving setup.

              edit 2: now i’m using pulse as my main browser

      • Smoogy@kbin.social
        113·
        11 个月前

        But that’s also not private as has been claimed as a reason to go FF. The only reason to use FF is only to not use chrome. Not for all the reasons that chrome is bad.

        • zucky@lemm.ee
          8·
          11 个月前

          Tor Browser, LibreWolf, and Arkenfox JS are the most secure and private browsers you can get and they’re all based on Firefox. If they’re not private enough for you, I don’t know what is

      • MyNameIsIgglePiggle@sh.itjust.works
        6·
        11 个月前

        I get your sentiment, but chrome 1 was crazy fast and seemed barely functional coming from a world of toolbars for most people.

        At the time people were like “I can’t use this, there’s only this search bar”

    • limecool@lemmy.ml
      517·
      11 个月前

      That may be true on desktop. But, unfortunately, the mobile app is way behind chromium. From being unresponsive, to outright buggy. It’s not a good experince. It’s been 2 years since the rewrite but it’s not getting much better or even close to fixing most of its issue. Meaning, using firefox on android is a handicap on yourself.

      • verdigris@lemmy.ml
        12·
        11 个月前

        Gonna need some statistics on this, because your anecdotal experience is not at all like mine. FF is totally useable on Android.

      • mayonaise_met@feddit.nl
        82·
        11 个月前

        I use it because I can use it to block ads. If a page doesn’t work, I’ll use chrome.

        I actually use Chrome on Windows. I just dislike ads more than I like Chrome.

      • Perfide@reddthat.com
        1·
        11 个月前

        Are you kidding?! Firefox on android isn’t just better than Chrome in feature set, as it has been for like a decade, it’s been faster than Chrome for at least a year, in my personal experience.

      • CrypticCoffee@lemmy.ml
        1·
        11 个月前

        As someone who has used Firefox on Android for 9 years plus… “lol, wut?!”

        It was bad, 7 years ago, and has been solid for at least 4 years.

      • Yttra@lemmy.world
        13·
        11 个月前

        Yeah, to be honest the FF Android experience just can’t match Chromium.

        I don’t really NEED to, so I’m not switching from Firefox anytime soon, but I wish they’d at least fix recently closed tabs reappearing every time I reopen the darned thing…

  • IntentionallyAnon@lemm.ee
    119·
    11 个月前

    DRM is stupid because it interferes with paying customers and isn’t effective. If there’s a will there’s a way

      • Tak@lemmy.ml
        19·
        11 个月前

        Can’t wait to have to subscribe to everything and they’ll still sell my data

      • Flaky@iusearchlinux.fyi
        14·
        11 个月前

        Not one-for-one, but the BBC actually wanted to put a tax on broadband bills in response to the resentment towards the TV License.

  • Chatotorix@lemmy.worldEnglish
    76·
    11 个月前

    Like, seriously, went through the last 10 years spending a good chunk of my day on Twitter and Reddit using Chrome, and suddenly I’m on Lemmy/Mastodon on Firefox.

          • JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nlEnglish
            1·
            11 个月前

            That is only because it doesn’t keep all tabs loaded in RAM all of the time though.

            If you open the same pages with the same installed extensions on both you will see similar RAM usage. It is only on restoring sessions or longer-term sessions that you will see a difference because FF will reload the page when it is activated again where chrome will keep it in RAM.

            At least that used to be the case.

            • BearGun@ttrpg.networkEnglish
              1·
              11 个月前

              I mean yes, that’s the main reason, but that doesn’t make it any less true. I like being able to have a couple extra tabs open just to have them there, not having them to use up resources seems kind of like a given.

    • Powerpoint@lemmy.worldEnglish
      13·
      11 个月前

      This is my exact change. They want to shittify things I’ll switch or just stop using it. I’m at my breaking point.

      • Chatotorix@lemmy.worldEnglish
        10·
        11 个月前

        Seriously… my oldest account on Reddit was 12 years old. I’ve been through so many changes that turned me off, but the API stuff was the last blow, and the CEO’s love for Elon Musk just sealed the deal.

      • Nowyn@sopuli.xyzEnglish
        3·
        11 个月前

        Add me to the list with a side of furiously searching for security and privacy of cloud storage services and figuring out which Linux I want to use. I’m shaking my head at how complacent I got with my services. I always do my due diligence when starting to use anything but I somehow forgot to keep up in the past couple of years.

      • Chatotorix@lemmy.worldEnglish
        5·
        11 个月前

        I won’t lie that it’s been an adjustment. Old habits die hard. Reddit is the one that I am more certainly done with. No one is on Mastodon yet so I do browse Twitter a little bit to get updates on the stuff I like, but don’t interact there anymore.

        • pietervdvn@lemmy.mlEnglish
          4·
          11 个月前

          Well, best thing to counter that is to be the change you want to see. Start the community for the niche you miss the most/know the most about. Post something daily for two weeks + do a call for mods, and before you know you’ll have at least some activity. I (helped) to bootstrap !openstreetmap@lemmy.ml this way, and the community has about 1 top level post per day on average now. Not a lot, but a good start.

  • panCat@lemmy.world
    826·
    11 个月前

    One more time if anyone says that capitalism breeds innovation we need to show them this ¡!

    • bric@lemm.ee
      331·
      11 个月前

      This is innovation though, an internet wide DRM would be quite an impressive technical feat. It’s just not innovation built to benefit you and me, it’s built to benefit Google’s true customers, advertisers

    • Something_Complex@lemmy.world
      152·
      11 个月前

      Oh almost like if in capitalism they didn’t say that oligarchys are a problem. What we needed is to send these giants down.

      That would prove difficult considering money rules, you can make people do you bidding, make them disappear and suffer little to no consequences.

      So what we needed is a decent anti-monopoly, anti-oligarchy force.

      Just like when the us gov dismantled AT&T into thousands of smaller different cervices and that created things like mobile rputhers and etc.

      Soo the, Google at this point is putting down more inovatjon that he is bringing it to the table.

      Problem is not capitalism, it’s all that power centered in the same place. Almost like a dictatorship.

      • panCat@lemmy.world
        51·
        11 个月前

        Well that was when anti trust laws actually worked ! Alphabet , meta etc are literally sucking americans poor. Still we dont see anything !

        • Something_Complex@lemmy.world
          43·
          11 个月前

          Tbh as a Climat activist who grew up surrounded by deniers …yhe… the feeling of hopeless is strong. But hey I have been seeing slow and gradual change, when things are getting bad.

          At least in your scenario (at the moment) when they go down we might be able to reverse the worse consequences. Unlike climate where we probably just fucked.

          • panCat@lemmy.world
            1·
            11 个月前

            Our planet has had good and bad climates , but humans have fucked it intentionally and there seems to be nor reluctance or remorse in the rich to fuck it even more , it will probably end in jeopardising human life , mostly the poor will suffer and die , but i am quite sure that planet will find ways to recover ! Once the humans are gone !

            • Something_Complex@lemmy.world
              3·
              11 个月前

              Oh for fuck sake, yes when I say planet I mean the delicate ecosystem that supports all life. See even better I still get downvoated by shit heads

      • verdigris@lemmy.ml
        21·
        11 个月前

        The problem isn’t capitalism, it’s just the system that allows power to be centralized through market forces and used to bribe regulatory bodies. Oh wait…

    • WolfhoundRO@lemmy.world
      13·
      11 个月前

      Yeah… They find innovative ways to milk us of our money and attention and annoy the heck out of everyone

    • Azzu@lemm.ee
      71·
      11 个月前

      I mean, it’s all innovation in some way… Just all anti-consumer.

  • artaxthehappyhorse@lemmy.ml
    75·
    11 个月前

    Ah yes, 2023. The year I wore a pirate hat and touched more grass. Soon they’ll be bribing the govt to make going outside illegal.

    • theneverfox@pawb.socialEnglish
      111·
      11 个月前

      Oh don’t worry, it’s poisoned and the animals are gone. Once the heat bakes off the greenery, there will be no reason at all to go out there except to get to your car

  • Dekthro@lemm.ee
    49·
    11 个月前

    Plus the paid streaming services adding ads back in and they are all the SAME fucking ads?

    🎶 Do what you want because a pirate is a free, you are a pirate! 🎶

    • panCat@lemmy.world
      14·
      11 个月前

      Ngl I am so done with streaming services asking for device specs and blocking things on my devices that I pirate stuff anyway !

    • CrowAirbrush@lemm.ee
      1·
      11 个月前

      I just dusted off my pirate flag, the rising costs of everything has made it impossible for me to do the legal thing.

      I’ll start my journey sailing the vast sees upcoming weekend.

    • tryptaminev 🇵🇸 🇺🇦 🇪🇺@feddit.de
      101·
      11 个月前

      They want to implement a “feature” so websites only load for you, if your browser, OS and hardware are deemed “trustworthy” aka you load every ad and malware that the website wants to shove down your throat.

      • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
        32·
        11 个月前

        Oh God… I think I’m going to be sick. It’s too easy to see how you could weaponize this against dissenters.

        Don’t like something about our product? Have fun being banned from the internet!

        • bobs_monkey@lemm.ee
          32·
          11 个月前

          Not even dissenters, just people in general. That’s why they’re likening it to DRM. Run something nonstandard on your system (ie Linux)? Get with the program. It’s a continuation of “you don’t own anything, use it how we want you to use it or don’t use it at all.”

            • panCat@lemmy.world
              10·
              11 个月前

              From what I gathered even if u have installed a browser on ur phone that is not signed by play store or app store google may block it , so fennec / bromium and other f droid products google may decide to tag as malicious !

          • panCat@lemmy.world
            15·
            11 个月前

            Isnt this already a thing with many webapps already , I had to dual boot windows coz some uni websites refused to run detecting linux on my system !

            • miss_brainfart@lemmy.ml
              1·
              11 个月前

              That’s just fucked. I guess I’m lucky that my Uni doesn’t really give a shit. During the pandemic, they were even chill enough for us to use alternative software here and there, since we weren’t allowed to come in and use the PCs on site.

      • panCat@lemmy.world
        5·
        11 个月前

        There are times I build my own browser and OS probably in future ( basically building open souce code , sometimes removing ssignatures and enhancements) , I wonder if I will be able to use stuff then !

        • Ophy@lemmy.nz
          1·
          11 个月前

          Or you could just use Firefox? Mozilla has stated that it opposes this stuff.

    • RhetoricalOrator@lemmy.world
      71·
      11 个月前

      Honestly, reddits API change was an awful thing to do but my phone usage has plummeted since then. I’ve been trying Lemmy but it’s not been an easy 1:1 replacement and I find myself not engaging or feeling so invested in conversations and content as much.

      That works in my favor, though, because I really have been spending way too much time looking at screens anyway.

      • PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de
        11·
        11 个月前

        Most corporate media tries to get you to spend too much time on their apps/sites. Getting on the fediverse felt like moving on from a toxic ex.