Saw this today, and … well, I’m not going to be so forgiving to people suggesting to vote Third Party rather than vote for Biden. If Trump wants me to do something, and you want me to do that same something, that tells me you’re aligned with Trump.
Oh, you mean like all of those “I can’t bring myself to vote for Biden because he’s not doing enough for Palestine” comments everywhere?
It’s not even clever. It’s the same strategy as 2016 promoting Jill Stein.
And Jill Stein all those other times too…
Yep. How many times were that sort telling everyone that Hillary would “start WWIII”? How often do they say it even now?
Better, I’ve gotten some of these:
“Because of YOU PERSONALLY I am going to vote for Trump but was going to vote for Biden before”
I saw a couple of those just today.
But how else can someone feel morally superior while simultaneously assisting the candidate that will accelerate any genocides going on in other countries?
the candidate that will accelerate any genocides going on in other countries?
Or, indeed, in Palestine itself. Trump, after all, is the candidate who wants Netanyahu to “finish the job” of killing them off.
Or all the jagoffs talking about how Zelenskyy is a “Nazi” and blaming Biden/Ukraine for what Putin has done…
looking to try to find ways to divide voters they fear will back President Joe Biden, by boosting other candidates and wedge issues in the Democratic Party.
That’s been the Republican platform for several decades.
Right? I was thrown off by the word “secretive” in the headline.
Its basic strategy in any campaign. Also, I’m not super convinced that RFK jr is really taking any votes from the left. The campaign seems to think they are, but isn’t releasing any data on this.
The polls I’ve seen with/without RFK seem to be pretty back and forth. I wouldn’t be surprised for them to be aware of how he impacts votes in very specific counties they feel they need to win.
doesn’t help that polls have been basically broken since 2019. that happens when a million people die with a bias for older people and they were the last to have landlines and answer unknown numbers.
Yeah, the campaign was talking about snatching New York from Dem’s and I was like ok yeah sure.
But honestly, RFK is polling around 10%. He could snatch a state. If that happens, Democrats lose, certainly.
Snatch a state, as in get the electoral votes?
Yeah. The RFK campaign was discussing it earlier this week. Basically that it would hurt Biden, but not Trump.
What state is realistically in play?
Their words not mine, but I can get you a clip.
Here is what I’m talking about. It might just be speculation, but it did come from the campaign.
I think Biden supporters are uhh… plenty divided. No need for help…
Not really on basic principles. Just on methods and approaches. There’s general agreement that the civilian casualties in Gaza are too high, for instance. The debate is do we try to maintain some influence over Netanyahu to try to sway him, or do we just cut them off and then whatever happens over there is whatever happens, we’d wash our hands of it.
Then the people that go after him more hardcore aren’t exactly the strongest “supporters”.
that go after him more hardcore aren’t exactly the strongest “supporters”.
Yeah that’s just patently untrue. The people going hard in the paint on Biden from the left are your hardcore progressive and leftist base. People that actually volunteer on campaigns, donate, go door to door, sign people up to vote and otherwise do work to get people elected. Think our revolution, justice democrats, extinction rebellion etc… Its not people passively engaged in politics that are activated and engaged in these organizations which are fundamental to getting any Democrats elected. Its activated, deeply engaged, strongly opinionated people who do the work of getting Democrats elected.
And this highlights the divide in Biden’s support. You have armchair centrists who basically do almost nothing and are only minimally engaged in the political process wagging their fingers saying “Any Blue Will Do” at the cohort of individuals who are being critical of Biden, but whom are also operate the cranks of the actual machines that gets Democrats elected. Any leftist worth their salt understands strategic voting, but that’s not the point. The point has been that this neo-liberal, technocratic approach to voting that Democratic centrists are insisting on, is losing and will continue to lose this election. The only thing that has kept Biden in this game was an activist rebellion within the Democratic primary system that forced his response, and he’s only really offered a papier-mâché stiffening of his rhetoric on Israel, but has done basically nothing to fix the underlying issue. IF Biden doesn’t fundamentally shift his position on Gaza and Israel now, this is over. He’s lost this election.
In this vein, the only thing that can actually save Biden from him self is a complete and total rebellion within the DNC voter base, and to basically drag Biden to a better policy position. Otherwise he will lose this election. The lame ass excuse of “Well Trump would be worse” is actually working against Biden right now, because Biden is actually the president, not Trump. The phrase “The buck stops here” is so apropos in this situation, that its almost comical.
The people going hard in the paint on Biden from the left are your hardcore progressive and leftist base.
That seems to be the central point of your argument, and then you claim all the centrists are not really helping in the trenches. It seems to me this has no basis in fact, and there are plenty of more moderate dems that volunteer, donate, are politically active, etc.
I imagine the confusion stems from moderates not protesting at as high a percentage, since protests draw a lot of attention, where a lot of the other work is less dramatic. The core of the democratic party isn’t just excited young progressives though, it’s also educated soccer moms with time on their hands.
edit: Consider it this way: When Hilary ran against Bernie, did she just have no volunteers on her side, because they were all with Bernie?
You obviously have no clue who is involved or works on political campaigns.
Both left and right, its people who care deeply about something. You don’t do that kind of work if you are on the fence on issues. You do that kind of work when you have a strong belief about something.
The problem I have with your argument is the implication that people who care deeply about helping the Democratic party are extreme leftists/progressives and not extreme neoliberals.
When you volunteer for a campaign, you aren’t volunteering for the “Democratic Party”, you are volunteering for a candidate, whom you may agree with somethings on but not others. However, people who want to make a difference are strategic about how they use their time. You pick whoever you are ideologically aligned with that you can stomach and you think has a chance of winning and you sign up and start dialing/ knocking on doors/ etc.
You’re just assuming that there aren’t people that care about having moderate policy positions.
edit: Here’s another question to get at the heart of that. Are all moderates just “on the fence” between two extremes that draw the only people that feel strongly? Or is centrism its own philosophy, that someone can believe deeply in, even if you personally may not see the appeal?
Are you asking rhetorically or do you need basic instruction in the political philosophy and hegemony of the previous 100 years of US history?
Because none of this is unknown or really up for debate.
I don’t know, I think you’re just spinning together a bunch of bullshit to hide the fact that there kinda is a large, more moderate faction in the country, that doesn’t like any extremist politics. They’re not all disengaged or apathetic, they’re the Bill Clinton supporters, and now Joe Biden supporters.
This group is far larger than either the far left or right, often middle aged, employed, often with kids. They’re not disaffected, and actually pay quite a bit of attention.
Of course, the existence of this group completely destroys the entire DNC conspiracy theory bullshit people like to lean on to attack democrats, just like it destroys MAGA people’s happy illusions that they’re the ones that are actually the “average American”, so I understand why it’s so distasteful to some.
But yeah, they’re out there. So go ahead I suppose, what do you got?
basically drag Biden to a better policy position.
I keep hearing words like “fight” and “drag” and “push” as to what we do to stop this, but they don’t mean actually fighting or dragging or pushing, just being annoying in ways that are easily dismissed.
I’ve gotten enough “fuck you I do what I want” letters from my reps and senators about things that I’ve given up “pushing” them in that way.
I think you make a good point on this. Its also not clear to me that any amount of cajoling is going to move Biden. However, I can’t think of anything else that can be ‘done’. If demanding he step further to us on a policy to get our votes when he’s losing an election doesn’t move him, it might be that he cares more about the policy position than he does winning the election.
And it kind of seems like that’s the case. He’s losing the election and he’s not moving on the policy position except in ‘leaked calls’ and sternly worded letters. If he doesn’t move left, he loses the election, but staying where he is at policy wise might be more important to him than preventing Trump from taking office. We shouldn’t assume he has the same priorities we do around government. Everything I’ve seen from his generation of geriatric politicians is an unfounded faith in the systems ability to self correct and resist things like the coup attempt in 2021. He’s from a generation that believes “the system works”, because its worked well for him/ them. I wouldn’t put it past him to leave us completely exposed to a fetishist take over because of this unfounded belief. In failing to support Ukraine when its core to the principals of a liberal democracy, and in supporting Israel while the actions they take are antithetical to a liberal democracy, he’s left us glaringly exposed to a fascist take over this election cycle.
The other part is that online lefties like us are a minority. If Biden does move left he risks losing the election to the majority of Americans who support Israel unconditionally. So nobody’s going to end up happy and he loses the election anyway.
He’s from a generation that believes “the system works”, because its worked well for him/ them.
This is a great insight that people who keep saying “we just need to push him after the election” don’t seem to get. Yes, I’m sure that in the past writing letters to Congress might have done something more than waste paper. But the system is so broken now that people don’t believe them and see the only way to get a message across that this is unacceptable is to not vote.
[Edit: I did not mean to write an essay but then here we are…]
If Biden does move left he risks losing the election to the majority of Americans
I agree completly overall, but I want to dig into this particular statement. My view on elections and electoralism has evolved, and at this point, I consider the ‘center’ of Americans to be a fiction. The basic paradigms driving votership in the US has shift to be basically cohorts of distinct voting blocs that have to be corralled into moving together. I think the right have used this understanding to great effect, and because of this they’ve been punching well above their weight class in terms of electoral impact relative to the actual number of people who vote. The right started this strategy in the 1960s with the southern strategy splitting off white evangelicals from Christians more broadly, and building them into a coherent voting bloc. Its more than I want to put the effort into writing down here, but my basic argument is that you don’t win modern elections through broad appeal. You win modern elections by appealing strongly to specific voting blocs and driving those cohorts of individuals to the polls. Bernie used this to almost snatch the primary from Hillary, before the DNC pumped the brakes and put the fix in. He wrangled voting blocs that were otherwise non-voters or more limited in their engagement with the party (leftists, progressives, black, lgbtqia, etc…) to engage a diverse coalition into voting for him, even if they were not individually united in their interests. Trump is doing a similar thing with libertarians, MAGA, qanon, anti-women voters, fascists, christian fascists, neo-liberals, and neo-conservatives. Internally they don’t really have a coherent issue set, but he basically goes to them one at a time, develops an understanding for their priorities, then speaks to those priorities directly. Trump isn’t making a broad appeal to the American center, he’s making a narrow appeal to hyper engaged individual blocs of voters, and its working extremely well. Biden comes from a different generation of neoliberalism (1984-2000) when there basically was 0 diversity in American politics and both parties effectively had the exact same set of policies. It was a unimodal distribution of issues, and so appealing to the center made sense. We no longer have a unimodal issue set or a unimodal distribution of voters. We have something, not even bi-modal, but more like two inverse paretos or poissons. There is almost no overlap in votership or policy priorities for the two parties or for the sets of demographic blocs that are going to show up to get some one elected.
So my overall argument is that an appeal to the center or to moderates is basically worthless because they don’t actually exist any more in the American electorate. There isn’t a silent majority. The unimodal distribution of votership died during/ after Clintons second term. Since then we’ve become increasing polarised as a country and as a votership because we no longer overlap whatsoever in terms of legislative priorities. As such, there is little value in appeals to moderation or centrism, because there are no voter blocs in those locations you can drive out to the polls. And recursive or negative attacks are also of little value because blocs aren’t formed ‘against’ things, they are formed ‘for things’ so you have to be ‘pro-something’ to drive a bloc. I think Trump gets this very much and is using it effectively, whereas Biden and basically all Democrats apart from Bernie simply do not understand how the electorate is formed and what it takes to win a national election at this point. 2020 was exceptional in that Bernie had fully activated a massive bloc of progressive and leftist voters on issues that were priorities for them. Young people and progressives won 2020 for the Democrats, and have been basically rewarded with a punch to the teeth in terms of Bidens policies.
In summary, modern voters don’t like Democrats or Republicans, but are voting based on their particular issue sets or identities and who is speaking to them or prioritizing those issues. Trump figured this out in 2016 and has been using it to great effect. Biden still thinks voters are “Democrats” first, and that their policy positions come second. This view is a holdover from a political paradigm that is no longer present.
Thanks for the essay! I liked it a lot. (Though the first paragraph could be broken up for readability.)
The tl;dr I’m getting is this: Both parties are “big tent” parties now, and Democrats seem to have forgotten this and are operating on 90s political theory. Sound about right? If so, I agree wholeheartedly.
My problem with the idiots screaming “Genocide!!!” is that they are overly simplistic in their understanding of the problem. First, if we cut Israel off, lots of very pro-Israeli donors carry out their threats to cut donations to the Left and give more to the Right. That’s more ads, more canvassers, more campaign staff, and more polling moving from Team Blue to Team Red. As much as I hate the fact that $$$ rules everything in the fucking USA, it’s still a fact, and the LAST thing Team Blue wants to have voters hearing is “America sold out Israel to Hamas after Hamas started the war.” Think about how low-information so many voters are in the USA, and think about how EASY it would be for Russian-Amplified Republican Propaganda to convince low-information, and frankly low-IQ voters that Democrats are the antisemites in the discussion.
Speaking of Russian-Amplified propaganda, let me remind everyone of these fact:
- Russia and Israel have historically had a friendly relationship with each other.
- Israel has a strong Russian contingent. The language is the third most spoken language, and Israel is ranked third in the list of non-Soviet nations that speak Russian.
- Netanyahu and Putin have particularly close ties, both being right-wing Authoritarian Jerks.
What is Russia trying to do? Reduce America’s influence in the world so it can step in and take over (it will fail, and learn QUICKLY that it is China’s bitch, but it doesn’t know this yet…). What’s the easiest way to do that? Have America cut off aid to Israel, then step in. Alternatively, if America STAYS supporting Israel, amplify the lie that Biden supports Genocide since he won’t cut off aid to Israel, allowing Russia to step in.
We need to call this bullshit out here and now, and point out the fact that either people pushing this nonsense are useful idiots, pushing Putin and Trump’s propaganda like the morons they are, or that they’re actually in cahoots with Putin and Trump, and need to be called out as the shitheads they are.
I’m done playing nice. It’s time to call a spade a spade.
Anybody who thinks the US will abandon Israel is ignorant of history, too. As is anybody who thinks they can vote for a president and not get blood on their hands.
I think this is a bad way to say ‘you have to vote for the least bad option out there’, because it implies you are responsible for what your President does. The logical next step, argued by shitheads a plenty here, is that if you don’t vote for a president, you don’t have blood on your hands. My argument is that’s not true.
- Vote for Biden, you have voted for the least bad option out there. It’s not perfect, but nothing ever is.
- Vote for Trump, you have voted for the worst option out there. You are directly responsible for what comes next.
- Vote for Third Party or staying home as a Lefty, you have reduced Biden’s vote share for no chance at winning. In my 51/49 Left/Right split, you and two of your buddies have picked Left2, ensuring Right wins 49R/48L/3L’. You too are directly responsible for what comes next.
- Vote for Third Party or stay home as a Rightie, while you won’t offset the Lefties voting Left2, you’ll at least reduce Trump’s share and maybe we can get 48L/47R/3L’/2R’. Can you convince a buddy to join you?
Because Israel sucks and so does Hamas, Palestine is going to get Genocided either way. The difference is that with Biden in office, Muslims, Gays, Minorities, and Transgendered folks aren’t going to get genocided here, and MAYBE Netanyahu reads the room and backs off, grudgingly, because he knows Dem voters are good with hanging him out to dry if he keeps this shit up. Elect Trump like the assholes we keep encountering screaming Biden Genocide want us to do, and not only do Palestinians get gleefully genocided by Netanyahu (who is the actual genocidal maniac), then so do all the other people I listed above.
If you’re not ashamed to be an American you probably failed history.
If you’re not ashamed to be
an Americana human, you probably failed history.There. Fixed it for you. And trust me, if I could trade my American citizenship for something else, I totally would, assuming it wasn’t worse.
I don’t think the Gaza issue will end up being a big issue for Biden. Those wanting more action on Gaza are generally to the left of Biden. It’s not likely that they will stay home on election day or vote 3rd party and help Trump that way. They’d much rather have Biden after all.
I think that few people are Biden supporters and more are “We have to get Biden in so that Trump doesn’t get in and hopefully someone younger will come by for the next round but he’s still better than the alternative by a mile”.
We could have elected a shoe into office in 2020 the anti-Trump sentiment was so strong. Its not as strong now, and Biden is a worse candidate than he’s ever been.
Neither points are true.
Username checks out
This thread is a dumpster fire. If you would vote for Biden but won’t because of some Israel BS here then you are handing the vote for trump, who says:
Former President Donald Trump declared Tuesday that Israel must “finish the problem” in its war against Hamas, his most definitive position on the conflict since the terror group killed 1,200 Israelis and took more than 200 hostages on Oct. 7. … "When President Trump is back in the Oval Office, Israel will once again be protected, Iran will go back to being broke, terrorists will be hunted down, and the bloodshed will end.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
And we haven’t even discussed trump essentially saying he’d let Russia take Ukraine.
Voting tor trump? This is what you’ll get. So ***** you if you think not voting for Biden is some kind of solution, you’ll just get trump letting the Israelis hunt everyone down.
It’s all over lemmy, every thread has massive amounts of genocide Joe or vote 3rd party comments.
I don’t know how “secretive” the scheme is. Seems pretty out in the open to me.
Indeed, how is it here?!
Man, I didn’t write the headline. I’d have left the word ‘secretive’ out, or put it in scare quotes. Because yes, same shit, different year.
Not blaming you. You did the right thing by not editing the title and letting it be.
Secret? Their playbook literally has four bullet points and this is #2.
Fuck Trump but the Democrats did this to Republicans in the last two election cycles. They specifically boosted MAGA Republicans in the Primaries because they knew they’d fail in the General. This isn’t some secret evil scheme that Republicans pulled out of their ass, it’s turnabout. As for boosting wedge issue both parties have literally been doing that for a hundred years!
Modern journalism is a raging dumpster fire.
The difference is the electoral college in the pres election requires 270. Primaries don’t. You’re comparing apples to oranges.
deleted by creator
They already have RFK to siphon off the lunatics.
RFK siphons from both parties.
I guess the lunatic fringe has mass appeal?
Yeah man I’m sure this completely has do do with the evil doings of the republican party and not at all to do with BIden’s dissident constituents.
Trump wants me to do something, and you want me to do that same something, that tells me you’re aligned with Trump.
OP apparently never saw a venn diagram in his life…
I guess I’m a Trump supporter since I also want to vote 3rd party…
I will not be voting for the genocide suppier no matter what you say.
You morally should vote as effectively as you can EVERY TIME. EVERY vote on the left moves the conversation left.
What you’re advocating is a disastrous take, and you’re falling for classic voter suppression tactics. If you vote for Trump he backs Israel AND Russia. If you don’t vote at all, or throw away your vote, you’re helping politics move towards the right. It’s like a game of tug of war and you’re giving up before it starts.
Rush said it best “if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice”
This is what I can’t stand about these “I will not vote for Biden” Neanderthals. They’re not making a point by abstaining; they’re indirectly aiding Trump while pretending they have the moral high ground.
I used to be them in my youth. They think it’s like the free market: if I don’t buy any spaghetti sauce because I don’t like classic or meaty then eventually someone will fill the gap and get me the chunky sauce I’ve been wanting. Unfortunately that simply doesn’t work in politics.
Once you see it for what it is, a game of tug of war, you realise that you have to play everytime. Even if the current leader doesn’t want to go as far as you want every step in the right direction is a victory in itself. It also shifts the center for the next election. You get what you want through steadfast victories over time not through instant change towards an ideal world.
If only they understood the reality of having a FPTP electoral system with only two viable parties.
In a more sane system where every vote actually mattered, by all means, vote for someone else or abstain. But in this current system, 30% of the population could vote third party, and that third party might not even get a single seat. Each and every one of those hypothetical votes which ultimately didn’t matter could have went towards pushing away an insurrectionist lunatic.
This is my point here.
One of two people will win the election in November. Biden or Trump. If you want Biden to lose, you want Trump to win. And if you want Trump to win, you want my wife to suffer (she’s a Black bisexual gamer nerd gal)… And we can’t be friends.
Suppier? Guess it makes more sense in the original russian?
Grow up.
