is the man or bear thing rhetorically or optically the perfect feminist meme that is beyond criticism? no.

but is it leaps and bounds better at getting men to understand the material consequences of patriarchy on the physical and emotional health of women than that stupid “kill all men” meme from last decade? definitely.

  • spujbOP
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    1 month ago

    if you see “feminists” excusing shitty behavior, call them the fuck out for it. im not holding everything under the banner of feminism infallible and you shouldn’t either.

    but bad feminists don’t excuse you inserting yourself into a conversation women are having about their lived experiences. and that is precisely what you are doing.

    women are expressing that they have been threatened and hurt, and you are stomping in with some vague “NUH UH a feminist was mean once or twice” to shut up those women. this is, and i don’t say this lightly, despicable.

    • Wanderer@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      I do. Then you normally get called sexist by other women.

      Like I said you never see feminism, or almost never see, women accepting there is ever anything wrong with feminism. Women need to take more responsibility over shitty women’s behaviour.

      • spujbOP
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        1 month ago

        women need to take responsibility over shitty women’s behavior.

        absolutely the fuck not. and you wonder why you get called sexist lmao. 😭

        you are the soyjack in the meme buddy. do some self reflection and listen to others for a moment.

          • spujbOP
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            1 month ago

            no. men (and women) need to take responsibility for the patriarchy, which manifests especially in oppressive behavior, primarily from and benefiting men but of course not limited to such.

            there’s a bit of an equivocation of two distinct meanings of “responsible.” feminism is about being a brother’s keeper type of responsibility, not about direct culpability in the actions of others.

            no one is ever individually responsible for the actions of another individual. but we are all responsible to protect and look out for each other.

            it’s a subtle difference but so, so important, so please read a couple times to understand.

            • iiGxC@slrpnk.net
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              1 month ago

              Women can uphold the patriarchy and/or reinforce toxic masculinity too.

            • Allero@lemmy.today
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              1 month ago

              Wonder if some women abusing men is patriarchy.

              Or if some women shaming men for not being masculine enough is patriarchy.

              Or if some women asking for some sort of benefits over men is patriarchy.

              If yes, the scope of “patriarchy” is so damn wide any reference to men (as in “patri-”) would be fair to be removed, and then we’d talk about antisexism in general.

              Besides, can we truly talk for the case of patriarchy when the oppression comes from previous generations of men leading to issues of currently living ones? Current men are often oppressed by those measures, not empowered, and that contradicts the very notion of it.

              I’m always a bit confused by this desire of women to put entire antisexism movement under the feminism umbrella no matter what.

              Why is it so important? What causes this desire for women alone to lead the way? Is it some sort of power struggle, fear of men stealing the topic and pushing another agenda?

              We are here, and we recognize the issues of men and, to the extent we can, the issues of women. Let us fight our fight without trying to make it about women. We talk about men, and would be happy to have a community of both men and women to solve what can’t be solved on one side.

              • spujbOP
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                1 month ago

                Wonder if some women abusing men is patriarchy.

                Often true, yes.

                Or if some women shaming men for not being masculine enough is patriarchy.

                Very often true, yes.

                Or if some women asking for some sort of benefits over men is patriarchy.

                I don’t know what you are referencing but probably?

                If yes, the scope of “patriarchy” is so damn wide any reference to men (as in “patri-”) would be fair to be removed, and then we’d talk about antisexism in general.

                You are absolutely free to do this. :)

                Besides, can we truly talk for the case of patriarchy when the oppression comes from previous generations of men leading to issues of currently living ones? Current men are often oppressed by those measures, not empowered, and that contradicts the very notion of it.

                You are definitely in the right here! And these stories are often underrepresented in feminist/antisexist spaces. There is a community for this if you were interested: !mensliberation@lemmy.ca

                I’m always a bit confused by this desire of women to put entire antisexism movement under the feminism umbrella no matter what.

                I think it’s more of a tradition thing than anything. As in, feminism being the first antisexist theory, all other antisexist theories will find their historical roots in what feminists first described. But a valid insight.

                Why is it so important? What causes this desire for women alone to lead the way? Is it some sort of power struggle, fear of men stealing the topic and pushing another agenda?

                No, and this is where I encourage you to be careful. You are reading far too much into a name. See above again for what I believe is more of an occams razor explanation.

                We are here, and we recognize the issues of men and, to the extent we can, the issues of women. Let us fight our fight without trying to make it about women. We talk about men, and would be happy to have a community of both men and women to solve what can’t be solved on one side.

                Fully agree! I wish you the best in this and I’ll be there alongside you. ❤️

                • Allero@lemmy.today
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                  1 month ago

                  Thank you for such a positive answer!

                  Still, I think naming it part of feminism introduces a lot of confusion about the goals of an antisexist movement, and can be exploited by many feminists, especially radical ones, hijacking the movement and extinguishing male voices where they matter, while covering it with “it never was about males”.

                  I know there are masculist movements, and I’m long member of !mensliberation@lemmy.ca in particular, but they are just drowned by the embracing, extending and extinguishing hands of feminism and what remains are drops in the ocean.

                  Which is why I insist on not calling it feminism. Because it really isn’t and it introduces a field for manipulation.

                  With all that said, I will be and I am alongside feminists as well, I just want the situation to be more balanced, and want to see more reciprocation and more male voices heard, not just drowned with “we save you too, so shut up” which often sadly happens.

                • HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  So when is a societal ill not the patriarchy? There doesn’t seem to be any delineation between what is and isn’t, so it almost seems like some sort of mysterious Satan figure

                  • spujbOP
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                    1 month ago

                    Good question!

                    Handling this question is tricky, but I’ll give it a shot with some examples. It’s worth noting that there’s often overlap between different systems, where those in power in one area also benefit disproportionately in others. (This concept is a key part of intersectionality theory.)

                    • White supremacy/racism
                    • Capitalism/exploitation
                    • Imperialism/colonialism
                    • Ableism
                    • Heteronormativity/homophobia/transphobia
        • HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          Dude the entire point of the “#AllMen” and “#YesAllMen” was that women need men’s help to police shitty behaviour from other men.

          Half the point of the bear meme is that men hide their power level from women until it’s too late.

          Why is it suddenly different when someone suggests women do their part?

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                1 month ago

                For sure! many such cases on the internet ❤️ have a good one

          • AnalogyAddict@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            Because—and I’ll say this slowly for you—in this scenario, women are the victims.

            Would you demand that the victim of a mugging do their part to stop the mugger from mugging?

            • HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              Women aren’t universally victims. They are not some sort of angelic holy being incapable of wrong. They’re human beings.

              Isn’t that the whole point of feminism? To treat women like people? Not livestock to be protected?

                • HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  What scenario? Have you even read the thread you’re in?

                  Should I try being patronising too? Would it help?

    • beardown@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      don’t excuse you inserting yourself into a conversation women are having about their

      You seriously think that a meaningful percentage of Lemmy’s active users are women?

      There are more trans/nb/etc users here than cis women.

      Which means it’s impossible for them to insert themselves “into a conversation women are having”

      • spujbOP
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        1 month ago
        1. trans women are women
        2. i have personally seen women getting harassed into deleting their comments and even accounts for expressing their lived experience under patriarchy. men literally came into their replies and brigaded them until they were forced to leave. so you are either misinformed or intentionally lying.