If they’re red fash I’ll be worried, but if they’re just going Reign of Terror or Paris Commune or Anarchist Catalonia, I’ll accept my execution with good grace.
The reign of terror french were pretty proto-red-fash tbch, people don’t exactly consider very often WHY it was where the fiercest resistance to this lang d’oil region centered uprising was concentrated in regions like the basque country, bretton country, and the lang d’oc regions. It wasn’t that they yearned for royalist ideals to be reinstated, it was because Robespierre and his even crazier backers were so paranoid by the end that something like movements for language rights were treated as exactly as traitorous as plotting to restore the bourbons to the throne with a counter purge to boot.
Something the modern revolution idealizing french seem to have made fully into one of their “the quiet part” policies with how they implement their version of laïcité.
It wasn’t that they yearned for royalist ideals to be reinstated,
It literally was, though. The language conflict you’re describing didn’t hit full swing until the Third Republic. The revolt in the Vendee was largely a reactionary movement by peasantry who were miffed at the idea of the bourgeois taking the place of the traditional aristocracy and clergy. The Vendee itself spoke lang d’oil and is, in fact, one of the original regions of lang d’oil.
Bullshit it didn’t hit full swing until the third republic the third republic was just when it also picked up the dynamic of the religious and language rights of immigrant communities because of all the colonialism the third republic was doing in Africa and the ME
Immigrant communities btw who were the actual resistance backbone in WWII, and who go unrecognized because the french right were collaborators who wanted their stories stamped out to preserve french nationalist narratives, and the french left were the backstabbing stalinists who sold them out to the Nazis before liberation came so that they’d get to take credit for all the heavy lifting post war and wanted to cover up their own complicity.
Never trust a “leftist” who thinks state sponsored murder is a good idea. They have no interest in anything except to be the executioner, and to feel nice and self righteous when they pull the trigger.
I mean they literally did exactly that until Stalin ordered them to start fighting after Barbarossa, after which point they began coopting the resistance movement already started by immigrants, jews, and other social rejects who stalinists also cast out for being rootless cosmopolitans or subversive agents of bourgeois decadence.
This is a slap in the face of the communists who died fighting for France. You should be ashamed of yourself. You depiction of Resistance communists as perfid opportunists that appropriated the Resistance movement is despicable. It’s a well-known fact that there were multiple fractions in the Resistance movement, nobody ever claimed it was just communists.
Yes, the PCF had shitty positions but it was controversial back then, even among communists. And even if it took them a while to do the right thing, they eventually did and risked and sacrificed their lives to fight fascism, unlike the vast majority of the rest of the population. So no, they didn’t sit on their asses, even though the PCF made strategic mistakes dictated by the USSR that benefitted Germany.
They literally cooperated with the occupation until Barbarossa because Stalin was angling to join the Axis.
Had the Soviet Axis talks gone as Stalin planned, the French Communists would have readily and eagerly lined up to collaborate on Stalin’s orders, because they specifically didn’t do shit to resist until Stalin ordered it.
This is also why I balk at dismissal of Social Democrats as being unworthy of being called leftist ever, that was a determination made by Stalin in the wake of Nordic socialist parties not bending the knee for him.
Stalin formed a new internationale specifically to exclude them and anyone who also didn’t bend the knee, then meanwhile the same bastard orders non-cooperation with anti-fascist resistance because it’d harsh his street cred with the fascists.
Man sold out europe for the hope of negotiating control Bulgaria and Turkey out of letting everyone west of his borders eat it and die horribly.
Idgaf about what the party leaders thought or did. I’m talking about the boots on the ground. Who were commies, and died. In the north of France, there are commemorative plaques remembering their sacrifice, on the houses they used to live in.
Your takes give Wikipedia-historian vibes. You get some facts right but fail to see the bigger picture. And you do so in a grossly inappropriate way.
It’s not that in either case the entire movement was especially authoritarian in their time periods and settings, it’s just that you’re willing to let people literally infringe on your right to live if it vaguely is in service of “the people.” If the world was against me, maybe I’m just an asshole, but I still have to fight for what I believe to be my best interest. Do I have any reason to do anything else?
it’s just that you’re willing to let people literally infringe on your right to live if it vaguely is in service of “the people.”
Yeah, that’s normal for people with actual beliefs. Surely you have a few you’d die for?
If the world was against me, maybe I’m just an asshole, but I still have to fight for what I believe to be my best interest. Do I have any reason to do anything else?
Yes. Absolutely. Unless your opinion is that only selfishness is legitimate.
My opinion is that only selfishness is legitimate. Again, give me a reason why not to. I care about my friends and family because I’m alive and get to experience the connection. I care about living in a safe society, and hopefully one that will treat people less fortunate, as I feel I have been given a shitty hand in many regards. This is all self interest. That all goes away when I die.
Edit: Also miss me with this “would die for my principles” shit. You’re literally defending dying for something you don’t agree with.
Is it? I can’t remember ever being called a tankie before in my life. I’m pretty ardently anti-Stalinist and anti-ML. Usually people accuse me of being a milquetoast socdem.
“ I don’t mind being executed as long as the government that ends my life is weak, ineffective, predisposed to being taken over by a dictator, and will surely fail within 2 years of its inception.”
I dont think I could make a more L take if I tried.
Which Revolutionary France? The one conquered by Napoleon, or the one conquered by Napoleon III. Just because a revolution kills a bunch of people and then gets conquered by a dictator does not classify it as a success.
It was a success. It is the spark that was necessary to rid France of monarchy. Emperors governed for a short bit, all things considered, but France would still have kings and queens if it wasn’t for the revolution.
They replaced the king with an emperor, and if it wasn’t for the efforts of other kings it would have stayed that way. In all reality France would have gone the English route with the monarchy as a figurehead, or have been conquered by the Nazis.
In more than 300 years, France has had emperors for only 30ish years at most. Get your facts straight. It was a success insofar as it helped establish long-lasting republics. It wouldn’t have happened without that initial spark.
France sees it as a success, and teaches it as such in its schools. And they’re better placed than a Wikipedia warrior to decide.
I don’t see what nazis have to do with 17-19th century France. You’re confused.
If they’re red fash I’ll be worried, but if they’re just going Reign of Terror or Paris Commune or Anarchist Catalonia, I’ll accept my execution with good grace.
The reign of terror french were pretty proto-red-fash tbch, people don’t exactly consider very often WHY it was where the fiercest resistance to this lang d’oil region centered uprising was concentrated in regions like the basque country, bretton country, and the lang d’oc regions. It wasn’t that they yearned for royalist ideals to be reinstated, it was because Robespierre and his even crazier backers were so paranoid by the end that something like movements for language rights were treated as exactly as traitorous as plotting to restore the bourbons to the throne with a counter purge to boot.
Something the modern revolution idealizing french seem to have made fully into one of their “the quiet part” policies with how they implement their version of laïcité.
It literally was, though. The language conflict you’re describing didn’t hit full swing until the Third Republic. The revolt in the Vendee was largely a reactionary movement by peasantry who were miffed at the idea of the bourgeois taking the place of the traditional aristocracy and clergy. The Vendee itself spoke lang d’oil and is, in fact, one of the original regions of lang d’oil.
Bullshit it didn’t hit full swing until the third republic the third republic was just when it also picked up the dynamic of the religious and language rights of immigrant communities because of all the colonialism the third republic was doing in Africa and the ME
Immigrant communities btw who were the actual resistance backbone in WWII, and who go unrecognized because the french right were collaborators who wanted their stories stamped out to preserve french nationalist narratives, and the french left were the backstabbing stalinists who sold them out to the Nazis before liberation came so that they’d get to take credit for all the heavy lifting post war and wanted to cover up their own complicity.
Never trust a “leftist” who thinks state sponsored murder is a good idea. They have no interest in anything except to be the executioner, and to feel nice and self righteous when they pull the trigger.
Commies actually fought in the Resistance movement. They didn’t just sit on their asses or sell France to Stalin or Hitler.
I mean they literally did exactly that until Stalin ordered them to start fighting after Barbarossa, after which point they began coopting the resistance movement already started by immigrants, jews, and other social rejects who stalinists also cast out for being rootless cosmopolitans or subversive agents of bourgeois decadence.
This is a slap in the face of the communists who died fighting for France. You should be ashamed of yourself. You depiction of Resistance communists as perfid opportunists that appropriated the Resistance movement is despicable. It’s a well-known fact that there were multiple fractions in the Resistance movement, nobody ever claimed it was just communists.
Yes, the PCF had shitty positions but it was controversial back then, even among communists. And even if it took them a while to do the right thing, they eventually did and risked and sacrificed their lives to fight fascism, unlike the vast majority of the rest of the population. So no, they didn’t sit on their asses, even though the PCF made strategic mistakes dictated by the USSR that benefitted Germany.
They literally cooperated with the occupation until Barbarossa because Stalin was angling to join the Axis.
Had the Soviet Axis talks gone as Stalin planned, the French Communists would have readily and eagerly lined up to collaborate on Stalin’s orders, because they specifically didn’t do shit to resist until Stalin ordered it.
This is also why I balk at dismissal of Social Democrats as being unworthy of being called leftist ever, that was a determination made by Stalin in the wake of Nordic socialist parties not bending the knee for him.
Stalin formed a new internationale specifically to exclude them and anyone who also didn’t bend the knee, then meanwhile the same bastard orders non-cooperation with anti-fascist resistance because it’d harsh his street cred with the fascists.
Man sold out europe for the hope of negotiating control Bulgaria and Turkey out of letting everyone west of his borders eat it and die horribly.
If my grandma had wheels, she’d be a bike.
Idgaf about what the party leaders thought or did. I’m talking about the boots on the ground. Who were commies, and died. In the north of France, there are commemorative plaques remembering their sacrifice, on the houses they used to live in.
Your takes give Wikipedia-historian vibes. You get some facts right but fail to see the bigger picture. And you do so in a grossly inappropriate way.
Oh and, just what politics do you imagine the immigrant backbone had, smartass? Why do you think they emigrated in the first place?
“Authoritarianism is cool when “the people” are doing it”
Uh, if that’s what you think all of those movements were, then sure.
It’s not that in either case the entire movement was especially authoritarian in their time periods and settings, it’s just that you’re willing to let people literally infringe on your right to live if it vaguely is in service of “the people.” If the world was against me, maybe I’m just an asshole, but I still have to fight for what I believe to be my best interest. Do I have any reason to do anything else?
Yeah, that’s normal for people with actual beliefs. Surely you have a few you’d die for?
Yes. Absolutely. Unless your opinion is that only selfishness is legitimate.
My opinion is that only selfishness is legitimate. Again, give me a reason why not to. I care about my friends and family because I’m alive and get to experience the connection. I care about living in a safe society, and hopefully one that will treat people less fortunate, as I feel I have been given a shitty hand in many regards. This is all self interest. That all goes away when I die.
Edit: Also miss me with this “would die for my principles” shit. You’re literally defending dying for something you don’t agree with.
Then we have nothing to talk about.
Okay, Tankie.
Accusing me of being a tankie? That’s a first.
That’s a lie.
Is it? I can’t remember ever being called a tankie before in my life. I’m pretty ardently anti-Stalinist and anti-ML. Usually people accuse me of being a milquetoast socdem.
Yes, alone itt you were called tanki more than once
That post was made before I was called tankie elsewhere in the thread.
“ I don’t mind being executed as long as the government that ends my life is weak, ineffective, predisposed to being taken over by a dictator, and will surely fail within 2 years of its inception.”
I dont think I could make a more L take if I tried.
Yes, Revolutionary France very ineffective, First Coalition won that war, right? Or the Royalists in the Vendee?
Which Revolutionary France? The one conquered by Napoleon, or the one conquered by Napoleon III. Just because a revolution kills a bunch of people and then gets conquered by a dictator does not classify it as a success.
It was a success. It is the spark that was necessary to rid France of monarchy. Emperors governed for a short bit, all things considered, but France would still have kings and queens if it wasn’t for the revolution.
They replaced the king with an emperor, and if it wasn’t for the efforts of other kings it would have stayed that way. In all reality France would have gone the English route with the monarchy as a figurehead, or have been conquered by the Nazis.
In more than 300 years, France has had emperors for only 30ish years at most. Get your facts straight. It was a success insofar as it helped establish long-lasting republics. It wouldn’t have happened without that initial spark.
France sees it as a success, and teaches it as such in its schools. And they’re better placed than a Wikipedia warrior to decide.
I don’t see what nazis have to do with 17-19th century France. You’re confused.