Some domestic violence centre near me got closed down because feminists kept protesting its existence.
Feminists got things to answer for.
Men aren’t always the issue. Men need male places, women don’t like that. Men can be victims, women don’t like that. What I seen in the world men are a lot more sympathetic to mens issue. Women just brush it off and say all mens issues are due to men and that really women are the victims.
Nah. Feminists didn’t create the mess that systemically harms men. What actually creates it is systemic patriarchy. If you’ve never heard of Earl Silverman, give his story a read. He did try to create many of the things you advocate for, and the things that caused their failure was not feminists. It’s a tragedy.
That being said, we absolutely still need non toxic spaces where men can heal and be great allies to themselves and others
Their point is that a lot of women, and possibly most women, are not feminists. Which means they enforce patriarchy, as do most people who aren’t feminists.
Equating women with feminists is dangerous and counterproductive
Also no shit not all women are feminists. Phillis Schlafely, Amy Coney Barrett, and plenty of others. Hell internalized misogyny is a major topic in any modern feminist theory.
Feminism isn’t just telling women “hey do whatever you want” it’s saying “analyze your choices and behaviors and work to remove the systemic social barriers placed on you” and it often finds its pioneers surpassed in their lifetime. Many suffragettes were uncomfortable with women taking traditionally male jobs.
As in the real world I’ve seen issues from women but not issues from men. But you go online and no women has ever done anything wrong and all men as bastards.
Not the case at all. I’m a big fan of bell hooks for example, but she’s not perfect. Still, she raises good points, like feminism is for everyone and that patriarchy can hurt men just as much as women.
Internet’s an echo chamber, so it’s good to get out and just talk to real people and ask them what’s important.
Feminism is too focused on women’s issues caused by men. If you want to talk true equality feminism is the wrong brand.
The truth is a lot of men have issues with women’s actions and that gets deflected as “patriarchy” and for something for men to solve. The suddenly women are not responsible for their actions.
Like say a women abuses a man. Feminist say “see this is the patriarchy in action. If men stopped with the patriarchy life would be better for everyone. Because then men could get help”. But when men actually try to get help they only going to get it from men. Women quite often say men don’t need it.
You should check out bell hooks sometime, she talks a lot about that! It’s a misunderstanding a lot of people have that comes from hot takes.
Despite the contemporary visionary feminist thinking that makes clear that a patriarchal thinker need not be a male, most folks continue to see men as the problem of patriarchy. This is simply not the case. Women can be as wedded to patriarchal thinking and action as men.
And this here highlights a core issue, the poor choice of language used to communicate the ideas.
Patriarchy and toxic masculinity, for example, are horrible terms for non academic conversations. The academics should have realized this long ago, and made a concerted effort to change the language into more gender neutral ones. The fact that not only has this not happened, but there is pushback on such suggestions, sort of proves the bias that does exist in this space.
Their poor choice of labels can only be expected to lead to the type of “man bad/woman good” thought process. Because outside of very specific academic circles, that’s exactly how those terms are read. When you read “toxic masculinity” you see “bad/broken men”. When you read “patriarchy” you read “men in control”, both terms are tailor made to lead directly to ‘blame men’ ideologies.
For a movement that, at one point, seemed very aware of & intent on changing language that reenforces old gender roles… they also seem to be fine creating and perpetuating language that actively reenforces those roles, when its men who’s roles are being reenforced.
I think a lot of feminists, hooks included, were pretty fed up with the academy. Their problem was that white upper class women were setting the terms of what feminism was in a way that excluded women of color who had also worked for many generations without being recognized. She was a supporter of using the term kyriarchy, which is more neutral and includes all structures of oppression.
That being said, I don’t think we need an academic interpretation to say fuck the patriarchy. It’s empowering! And for men too. We don’t need to wait for the correct wording to fight against it. We can be awesome allies and good to each other, because we know the systems of oppression we’re all fighting against.
Misandry and feminism are not mutually exclusive. One issue with folks who are patriarchy poisoned is they don’t accept help on the terms equitable to the people offering it. I see this a lot in my experience as a trans person. Every now and then I encounter a former right winger who wants to be better who looks at me as kindly life preserver to use to dig themselves out of transphobic rhetoric…
Which is great for them, self actualization for the win and all. But when they keep saying secondhand hateful shit - like supporting bathroom legislation or inferring that trans people are all child predators… That’s shit that uses up the energy I am using to keep afloat. If you set a boundry and someone keeps demanding you lower it to have “good faith” conversations at the cost of your mental health. Being placed in a position where you are suddenly the advocate for everyone of your minority is exhausting… And honestly people learn slow. They don’t want to be at fault for something so they will defend their behaviour to the bitter end and throw tantrums when you tap out… That is if they are primed to look at you as as and authority in the subject of being trans at all. When the programming they recieved is that you are delusional people are not primed to deal with your perspective as having any weight.
The thing about feminism is that it organized. It fought other groups of women as well as men. First at the negotiation table they became embattled over and over again. When you get rape and death threats for saying “hey maybe with could have more games with female protagonists?” then you are getting abused at a mob scale. That shit changes people. Some people who are abused become hostile ad a trauma response themselves and are not in a place to offer help. It takes strength for someone coming from a place of abuse to be in a place to be a good ally to people with problems that take logical leaps to empathize with. Not everyone has that but one of the things that helps is recognizing that someone is hurt and not looking at them as being a paragon of fairness and inclusivity. Some people need safe places to retreat to and heal. Some people never actually heal well. They are not your problem. If you waste energy looking to those people as your bar for ultimate acceptance you will only become bitter.
Probably nobody has completely clean hands. Are you suggesting that only perfect people can attempt good work and all others are suspect? What about redemption?
I’m saying women can be toxic. They can treat can treat men badly. They even claim to be feminists. But other women will never admit this issue is with women.
Instead they will say the real cause is the patriarchy.
All I can say is I’ve never, or at least can’t remember any mental health issues I’ve had or heard about men having caused by the patriarchy. Short term things like getting angry and fighting yes, but it’s only been short term shit that’s been resolved. Actual guys struggling with mental health that is due to a non family memeber from a person has always been due to women. But that isn’t a real issue is it? There must be something else causing it because women can’t ever be in the wrong.
Honestly fuck it. No one cares. This is why feminism doesn’t work between sexes. Men can’t have issues with women or the culture that women are responsible for. Women just want to be on the right side and they want men to be on the wrong side.
Some domestic violence center near me got closed down because feminists kept protesting its existence.
Name names. I’d like to know if they were actually closed because of protests or if the supposed protests were unrelated to them closing. Even if there were protests and they closed, those two events don’t have to be related.
I’m aware of historic examples. The person I was replying to was being vague about where and when their experience happened to perpetuate a narrative. By not naming names, we conclude that it’s a generalization. Even if it is true, feminism isn’t a monolith and this isn’t acceptable behavior. Educated feminists know that poor mental health for men only hurt their situation.
I agree with your point, especially “Educated feminists know that poor mental health for men only hurt their situation,” but it’s really frustrating to be told “This isn’t real feminism” when the harm misandrists do is very real. It feels like there’s a double standard - when men talk about the problems misguided or undereducated feminists cause, they’re told to be specific in their language and not to generalize. In the same breath, people who at minimum appropriate the feminist banner do a lot of generalization about men. You see it all over this site and in pop feminist circles, and being told “Well you can’t criticize feminism just because some people do it badly” leads to a lot of resentment.
It also doesn’t feel fair to say “Well they were being vague”. A lot of the harm perpetuated by patriarchy, misandry and other elements in society is amorphous. A lot of people don’t have an acute moment of pain - they internalize things over time, or have lots of small incidents. Getting hurt and being told to man up, being told that men don’t belong in queer spaces, or that all men are pigs.
People use vagueness to perpetuate broad generalizations for a narrative. A narrative they probably got from from some culture warrior youtuber. It’s how you can be dishonest without technically lying. You’re using broad generalizations to criticize broad generalizations. If you think you’re being attacked by broad generalizations, demand citations. YOU ask for specifics.
Some domestic violence centre near me got closed down because feminists kept protesting its existence.
Feminists got things to answer for.
Men aren’t always the issue. Men need male places, women don’t like that. Men can be victims, women don’t like that. What I seen in the world men are a lot more sympathetic to mens issue. Women just brush it off and say all mens issues are due to men and that really women are the victims.
Nah. Feminists didn’t create the mess that systemically harms men. What actually creates it is systemic patriarchy. If you’ve never heard of Earl Silverman, give his story a read. He did try to create many of the things you advocate for, and the things that caused their failure was not feminists. It’s a tragedy.
That being said, we absolutely still need non toxic spaces where men can heal and be great allies to themselves and others
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Silverman
Their point is that a lot of women, and possibly most women, are not feminists. Which means they enforce patriarchy, as do most people who aren’t feminists.
Equating women with feminists is dangerous and counterproductive
Duh. A lot of men like me are feminists. A lot more of them are ones without realising it.
Also no shit not all women are feminists. Phillis Schlafely, Amy Coney Barrett, and plenty of others. Hell internalized misogyny is a major topic in any modern feminist theory.
Feminism isn’t just telling women “hey do whatever you want” it’s saying “analyze your choices and behaviors and work to remove the systemic social barriers placed on you” and it often finds its pioneers surpassed in their lifetime. Many suffragettes were uncomfortable with women taking traditionally male jobs.
So all feminists have completely clean hands?
That’s the issue I’m raising.
As in the real world I’ve seen issues from women but not issues from men. But you go online and no women has ever done anything wrong and all men as bastards.
Not the case at all. I’m a big fan of bell hooks for example, but she’s not perfect. Still, she raises good points, like feminism is for everyone and that patriarchy can hurt men just as much as women.
Internet’s an echo chamber, so it’s good to get out and just talk to real people and ask them what’s important.
Feminism is too focused on women’s issues caused by men. If you want to talk true equality feminism is the wrong brand.
The truth is a lot of men have issues with women’s actions and that gets deflected as “patriarchy” and for something for men to solve. The suddenly women are not responsible for their actions.
Like say a women abuses a man. Feminist say “see this is the patriarchy in action. If men stopped with the patriarchy life would be better for everyone. Because then men could get help”. But when men actually try to get help they only going to get it from men. Women quite often say men don’t need it.
You should check out bell hooks sometime, she talks a lot about that! It’s a misunderstanding a lot of people have that comes from hot takes.
from Understanding Patriarchy
And this here highlights a core issue, the poor choice of language used to communicate the ideas.
Patriarchy and toxic masculinity, for example, are horrible terms for non academic conversations. The academics should have realized this long ago, and made a concerted effort to change the language into more gender neutral ones. The fact that not only has this not happened, but there is pushback on such suggestions, sort of proves the bias that does exist in this space.
Their poor choice of labels can only be expected to lead to the type of “man bad/woman good” thought process. Because outside of very specific academic circles, that’s exactly how those terms are read. When you read “toxic masculinity” you see “bad/broken men”. When you read “patriarchy” you read “men in control”, both terms are tailor made to lead directly to ‘blame men’ ideologies.
For a movement that, at one point, seemed very aware of & intent on changing language that reenforces old gender roles… they also seem to be fine creating and perpetuating language that actively reenforces those roles, when its men who’s roles are being reenforced.
I think a lot of feminists, hooks included, were pretty fed up with the academy. Their problem was that white upper class women were setting the terms of what feminism was in a way that excluded women of color who had also worked for many generations without being recognized. She was a supporter of using the term kyriarchy, which is more neutral and includes all structures of oppression.
That being said, I don’t think we need an academic interpretation to say fuck the patriarchy. It’s empowering! And for men too. We don’t need to wait for the correct wording to fight against it. We can be awesome allies and good to each other, because we know the systems of oppression we’re all fighting against.
Archiarchy.
Misandry and feminism are not mutually exclusive. One issue with folks who are patriarchy poisoned is they don’t accept help on the terms equitable to the people offering it. I see this a lot in my experience as a trans person. Every now and then I encounter a former right winger who wants to be better who looks at me as kindly life preserver to use to dig themselves out of transphobic rhetoric…
Which is great for them, self actualization for the win and all. But when they keep saying secondhand hateful shit - like supporting bathroom legislation or inferring that trans people are all child predators… That’s shit that uses up the energy I am using to keep afloat. If you set a boundry and someone keeps demanding you lower it to have “good faith” conversations at the cost of your mental health. Being placed in a position where you are suddenly the advocate for everyone of your minority is exhausting… And honestly people learn slow. They don’t want to be at fault for something so they will defend their behaviour to the bitter end and throw tantrums when you tap out… That is if they are primed to look at you as as and authority in the subject of being trans at all. When the programming they recieved is that you are delusional people are not primed to deal with your perspective as having any weight.
The thing about feminism is that it organized. It fought other groups of women as well as men. First at the negotiation table they became embattled over and over again. When you get rape and death threats for saying “hey maybe with could have more games with female protagonists?” then you are getting abused at a mob scale. That shit changes people. Some people who are abused become hostile ad a trauma response themselves and are not in a place to offer help. It takes strength for someone coming from a place of abuse to be in a place to be a good ally to people with problems that take logical leaps to empathize with. Not everyone has that but one of the things that helps is recognizing that someone is hurt and not looking at them as being a paragon of fairness and inclusivity. Some people need safe places to retreat to and heal. Some people never actually heal well. They are not your problem. If you waste energy looking to those people as your bar for ultimate acceptance you will only become bitter.
boll hooks
bell hocks
Probably nobody has completely clean hands. Are you suggesting that only perfect people can attempt good work and all others are suspect? What about redemption?
I’m saying women can be toxic. They can treat can treat men badly. They even claim to be feminists. But other women will never admit this issue is with women.
Instead they will say the real cause is the patriarchy.
All I can say is I’ve never, or at least can’t remember any mental health issues I’ve had or heard about men having caused by the patriarchy. Short term things like getting angry and fighting yes, but it’s only been short term shit that’s been resolved. Actual guys struggling with mental health that is due to a non family memeber from a person has always been due to women. But that isn’t a real issue is it? There must be something else causing it because women can’t ever be in the wrong.
Honestly fuck it. No one cares. This is why feminism doesn’t work between sexes. Men can’t have issues with women or the culture that women are responsible for. Women just want to be on the right side and they want men to be on the wrong side.
Name names. I’d like to know if they were actually closed because of protests or if the supposed protests were unrelated to them closing. Even if there were protests and they closed, those two events don’t have to be related.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Silverman
I’m aware of historic examples. The person I was replying to was being vague about where and when their experience happened to perpetuate a narrative. By not naming names, we conclude that it’s a generalization. Even if it is true, feminism isn’t a monolith and this isn’t acceptable behavior. Educated feminists know that poor mental health for men only hurt their situation.
I agree with your point, especially “Educated feminists know that poor mental health for men only hurt their situation,” but it’s really frustrating to be told “This isn’t real feminism” when the harm misandrists do is very real. It feels like there’s a double standard - when men talk about the problems misguided or undereducated feminists cause, they’re told to be specific in their language and not to generalize. In the same breath, people who at minimum appropriate the feminist banner do a lot of generalization about men. You see it all over this site and in pop feminist circles, and being told “Well you can’t criticize feminism just because some people do it badly” leads to a lot of resentment.
It also doesn’t feel fair to say “Well they were being vague”. A lot of the harm perpetuated by patriarchy, misandry and other elements in society is amorphous. A lot of people don’t have an acute moment of pain - they internalize things over time, or have lots of small incidents. Getting hurt and being told to man up, being told that men don’t belong in queer spaces, or that all men are pigs.
People use vagueness to perpetuate broad generalizations for a narrative. A narrative they probably got from from some culture warrior youtuber. It’s how you can be dishonest without technically lying. You’re using broad generalizations to criticize broad generalizations. If you think you’re being attacked by broad generalizations, demand citations. YOU ask for specifics.