That headline is false. You do not have to affirm Israel’s right to exist.
You have to know that it’s illegal to call for the destruction of the state of Israel. That’s not the same.
What happens if they affirmed that both Israel and Palestine’s right to exist?
It’s a multiple choice question. Also the headline is false. The question is:
“What action relating to the state of Israel is prohibited in Germany?"
The correct answer is “publicly calling for the destruction of Israel".
They deny your citizenship on the grounds that you are a member of Hamas.
Germany equating its historic debt to Jewish people with support for a particular state is an absolutely disgusting distortion of the German obligation of remembrance.
Just like this, they throw under the bus any anti-Zionist Jew.
Honestly, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the German state should just do what their other genocide victim, Namibia, told them to do and Shut. The. Fuck. Up. Stay the fuck out of it. Say the honorable thing that you will abide by the rulings of international courts. Provide humanitarian aid, help refugees and displaced people. Be a ray of light and humanity, not a stickler for rules and definitions. Don’t be so goddamn fucking German for a change.
its historic debt to Jewish people
One would assume this debt would be repaid with German lands and monies, rather than land and money looted from Arabs a continent away.
Honestly, when it comes to Israel/Palestine, the German state should just do what their other genocide victim, Namibia, told them to do and Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
Yeah, crazy how the Germans are full throated supporters of Israel, but you never see them waving big Nambia flags and asserting the rights of African state sovereignty. I’m forced to wonder why, as I flip through my history book of “German Prime Ministers After 1949”.
What this person said.
~ sincerely, a German
(Seriously though, the situation here is intense. Our minister of education is currently under pressure to resign by the scientific community (which she refuses to do) because her ministry was looking for ways to defund / revoke grants to 400 university researchers who had criticized the way in which a pro-Palestinian protest was handled. That’s all it takes.)
Removed by mod
Leaving my home, friends, family and everything build up behind just because of my political views? What an absolutely genius idea, why haven’t I thought of this earlier?!
Dear Sir,
Kindly fuck off.
Trying to change your country for the better is more patriotic than leaving it.
Right, that’s the spirit the US was built upon. Staying and working towards change instead of leaving Europe at the first inconvenience /s
Removed, civility.
…no words.
Not accepting israels right to exist is a call for genocide against israel. Israel exists and has the right to exist. You can recognize that and still be against Netanyahus government.
Israel is not the people. The people can continue to exist under different countries and governments.
By that logic the creation of israel was a genocidal act in itself because it created a right for a people to eist where others were existing previously.
If removing the right to exist of the Palestinian people is perfectly acceptable why is it necessary to keep chanting support for the rights of the aggressor?
Yes, opposing the establishment of a new state with a new population where someone else already lived would have been appropriate in the late 1940s.
Unfortunately it’s 2024 now, Israel does exist and time is linear.
So the only thing that can be done now is to recognize neither Israel nor Palestine should be erased.
(Though pointing out that the latter doesn’t seem to get mentioned here would be appropriate.)It was always a contentious issue, there was just a lot of sympathy for the jewish people given the circumstances. Right being right, a portion of Germany should have been given. Instead the issue was exported to be dealt with remotely to the detriment of a different people who were wholly uninvolved.
At the moment, any defense of Israel’s right to exist is used to excuse a very clear land grab. Israel has the right to eist within is Israel only.
Yes, opposing the establishment of a new state with a new population where someone else already lived would have been appropriate in the late 1940s.
Unfortunately it’s 2024 now, Israel does exist and time is linear.
That means that if you commit a crime and wait long enough, it’s legitimized. No way in hell.
Unfortunately that’s exactly how it works.
Look at any country’s border and tell me which ones weren’t established by violence.The actual question is, what alternative to accepting Israel’s existence would you propose. Because forcefully removing them would just be one more crime.
Forcefully drawing a border less encouraging of violence against native population. Also forcefully stopping all their meddling in the form of military occupation, blockade, block posts and so on. Arming their neighbors so that Israel doesn’t have such a military advantage.
Israeli jews have the right to life, freedom, safety. They have the right to a home in the Holy Lands.
They don’t have the right to set up a Jewish supremacist apartheid state to deny the same rights to everyone else.
The state that they have created and entrenched with genocide and “facts on the ground” no longer has legitimacy to exist in its present form. Because of its entrenchment I don’t see how it can be reformed.
So instead, ending this political entity to establish a new democratic one seems to be the surest way out of this mess.
This is not a call for genocide by any stretch of imagination.
It isnt. No settler state has a right to exist, the settlers already there should integrate into the indigenous culture or leave. This includes the US, Canada, Australia and so on.
I agree, we all need to move back to Africa. All 8 billion of us.
migration =/= colonialism
Unless you’re asserting that none of your ancestors have ever claimed land at the expense of somebody else, you’re a colonist.
For all its faults and crimes, and Lord knows there are many, the country I’m in isn’t oppressing a people native to this region.
My point being, go far enough back, and you WILL have found a people or tribe that got wiped out so another group could claim their territory. Where do you (arbitrarily) draw the line?
This includes Functionally EVERY state with incredibly few if any exceptions. Whens your line for when a conqueror becomes a local?
migration =/= colonialism
To expand on this, the oppression of the indigenous peoples of these nations is ongoing. Its not in the past its still happening. Thats the line.
That’s the dumbest take ever. Look up the history of Israel and then tell us again how “it’s just a random state why does Germany care lol” isn’t.
I didn’t say it’s a random state, I said it was a particular one. It is one particular expression of Jewishness, when others also exist. Precisely because of the history of Germany, the German state has no business whatsoever to play arbiter about which version of Jewishness is the most authentic.
Now you’re just rambling
This is idiotic. Gandhi hated that Pakistan split off and said that he recognized their existence but would never recognize their “right” to exist.
That’s not even an international policy. Does Castile have a right to exist? Does Kashmir? Does Kurdistan? Why doesn’t Germany demand the same for others?
Why?
Do you really really have to ask why? :)
No. Germany can recognize Jewish lives and the worldwide Jewish community without needing to play into the hands of a rightwing apartheid state and getting involved smack in the middle of their political dispute. This isn’t hard; it’s like being able to say Black Lives Matter without having to support and endorse the controversial policies of Louis Farrakhan.
Yes.
There is a VERY specific reason why Germany is doing this, whilst staying out of other issues. If I have to point out that reason then I think that maybe you should pick up a history book.
Also they aren’t saying that Germany is recognizing Jewish lives and Jewish communities, it says the state of Israel, you know, that appareheids state currently working hard to commit genocide.
Anyone bringing but this issue with either Israel or Palestine being good and the other side being evil is just downright lying for whatever reason. Germany pushing this for Israel really REALLY begs the question: okay, cool, Israel has a right to exist. What about Palestine, and Palestinians in general? Should we just off all of them? Eradicate all of them, men, women and children alike, no matter what country?
Because of our history with Israel? I am all against the genocide against palestinians but defending israels right to exist is a good thing
Why add this to te immigration screeming process while they are actively committing war crimes, stealing land and murdering kids?
germany has managed to land on te wrong side of history twice in the same conversation.
Blindly standing with a group becuase germany feels they have given their own atrocious history.
our history with israel is the third reich and israel having friendly relations. We are continuing nazi tradition by supporting israel.
If “their right to exist” weren’t used to mean “their right to take land from Palestinians and create settlements in land they took through violence” it would be a bit simpler to agree with the statement, but the foundation of Israel itself has always been on pretty shakey ground. The only reason Israel has a right to exist is because it’s impractical that they’d leave at this point. They should leave the land they’ve stolen though.
Granting Israelis the right to Lebensraum.
But not Palestine’s.
The German state doesn’t recognise Palestine as a state currently, so probably not.
Only a few countries west of the former Iron Curtain recognise Palestine (Iceland and Sweden, and as of this year Norway, Ireland, and Spain)Germany doesn’t recognize Palestine’s right to exist. It’s only fair Germany gets deported
Exist? Okay sure, why not.
Bomb a Population to a pulp? FUCK NO!
And thats why I will NEVER vote for any of these fucks again! My Party won’t make it into the Bundestag? I DON’T CARE! Because the other Party’s won’t represent me anyway, so I can easily vote for my small Party which at least represents me!
I’m avoiding all votes in my country due to their (all parties) silence on the current situation. Call me anti-democratic, but, for me, democracy died a long time ago.
I’m not sure what country you are from, but as someone whose vote literally is counted before I even see a ballot, let me tell you, please vote or at least do something. If you don’t like the way politics in your country work, go out and demonstrate. Take it to the streets. Talk to your neighbors, make leaflets. But please don’t just go bitter and sit in your corner because everything is shit anyways. Because this is how we ended up with a lot of the messes we are having now. I “voted” for the first time this year in a rigged election and before that I also always thought the way you do. Democracy is dead, why bother, my vote doesn’t count anyway. But once I stood in this fucking line and smuggled in a non erasable pen and voted and went out knowing no one will even look at this ballot something changed.
How about affirming the two-state solution. You know, the one that everyone sensible has been pushing for to resolve this conflict.
Wow, so all the jews have to do is start genociding, and all of a sudden Germany realizes, ‘hey these guys aren’t so bad after all!’
It’s not the jews. It’s zionists who would love to make those synonymous.
Man, I hate this “ThE jEwS” crap… Zionist Israel is not “the Jews” and equating them is actually quite antisemitic.
Israel can have the Gaza strip if Palestine gets to take control of the rest of Israel. Problem solved.
What are the actual questions?
As of today they’re also expanding deportations. If you are caught using banned slogans on social media such as from the river to the sea and you’re a foreigner you will get deported for “praising terrorism”. Some politicians argue that even as much as a like will be enough for the authorities to throw you out of the country.
And if you have double citizenship and you got your German one as of this year, they will be able to cancel your citizenship if you’re ever convicted of questioning Israel’s right to exist.
Nope, not true. Stop spreading misinformation just because you want to get public praise.
You will not automatically get deported, but it will be made easier to deport foreigners who are praising terrorism. There’s a big difference. You always have legal recourse against this.
That’s important because the phrase “from the river to the sea” is not illegal praise of terrorism in Germany, even if you may have heard so from your equally misinformed bubble. While its use shows that the person saying has a big problem with accepting that a complex situation will certainly not be reflected in a catchy sentence, and that it may be time for that person to just excuse them from a discussion they are very likely not a part of, it is not illegal.
Why? Because courts will have to make the decision whether its use in a specific context was illegal, and more often than not it won’t be.
In Germany, you can’t currently deport anyone just for expressing extremist views. However, recently there were demonstrations in Hamburg where about 1,000 people marched to advocate for a caliphate and Sharia law in Germany, which led to a public debate about exactly this. However, this isn’t about Palestine but about anti-constitutional extremism. Some state interior ministers are now advocating to explicitly outlaw this kind of islamist extremism, potentially paving the way for easier deportations for those advocating for a caliphate in Germany. Here’s a german article on the topic.
the phrase “from the river to the sea” is not illegal praise of terrorism in Germany, even if you may have heard so from your equally misinformed bubble
Oh yeah, my misinformed bubble, the official government press conferences: https://youtu.be/lBmDdNZmToU?si=rsLM5CyTSjEFxBTI&t=353
Or DW https://www.dw.com/en/german-cabinet-backs-deportations-for-praise-of-terrorism/a-69480819
I’ve seen people (including jews) getting fined for hate speech for an instagram story containing just “from the river to the sea palestine will be free” From now on, that will also come with a deportation.
The highly esteemed german courts will have the freedom to decide what fits into which context. A social media like will land you in court. Saying that hamas committed terrorist acts but also that it is a resistance movement spawned out of the oppression will also land you in a court because any nuanced discussion is too much for the german intellect and instantly means “pRaIsInG tErRoRiSm”.
I can’t wait to see all the neolibs that clapped when the greens and the social democrats passed these laws, when the AfD gets in power here (which will definitely happen sooner or later, following the EU wide far right movements) and when they decide to reinterpret those “contexts” their highly esteemed german courts like to discuss so much. I’m sure this draconian stuff won’t backfire. But hell, who cares, it’s only Ausländer getting the short end of the stick anyway.
So the blog post just states that the phrase isn’t illegal to use but the state still decides to “investigate” its use often by using force, arrests, and by searching peoples’ homes, confiscating their electronic devices and so on. It’s good to hear that the “Verfassungsblog” argues that its use isn’t generally illegal, but also states that the current police proceedings are going to great extent to intimidate people
You call them police proceedings, but it’s the public prosecutor’s office (Staatsanwaltschaft) that is calling the shots. Regardless, the article also states that two of the highest courts called the Verwaltungsgerichte have decided that the phrase isn’t illegal per se.
Of course it is illegal in the context of glorifying Hamas terrorism, as it should be. That also puts a responsibility on organisers of protests to make sure that they distance themselves from people who are ambiguous in their distancing from hamas, that’s a positive thing in my opinion.
You are very naive if you think that the German authorities would not bend or abuse such laws. If you’re a white German and as such not a victim of the systemic racism prevalent in the institutions of pretty much all European countries, you can’t understand this. Good for you but you’re incredibly privileged to an extent that you don’t seem to grasp based on your reply.
I’m not denying my privilege, but I’d argue that I’m more aware of my biases than you appear to be
with your previous comment you went far afield, but you’re not wrong either.
If they managed to push this thing through, they might as well force other laws onto people.
Oh for the love of fuck would you get out of your bottomless victim pit?
CEAS: “Breaches of core legal principles are going to become the new normal”
Greek coastguard threw migrants overboard to their deaths, witnesses say
Hungary’s Migrant Abuse Is ‘Matter of Urgency,’ European Agency Finds
Canceling Palestine by Slavoj Žižek
Are your tinned tomatoes picked by slave labour?
Detention, Insecurity, Rights Deprivation – The Legal Crackdown on Asylum Seekers in Germany
The Serbian borders are heavily affected by pushbacks and police brutality
Here’s something for you to read. Took me literally a few minutes to put all of this together. There’s so much more. Most of Europe is slowly sliding into fascism and you somehow believe I am in a „victim pit“ by pointing that out? It always begins with the most vulnerable people. And then as a leftist suddenly you’re a „terrorist“ for criticizing the government and off you go.
Similarly in Scandinavia. Friends, who live in Sweden, told me about multiple people claiming how Sweden is turning more fascist, compared to previous years.
Eastern Europe doesn’t represent Europe as a whole. Never has, never will.
No. The victim pit you’re in is the perpetual victim role you’ve taken on as a personality.
And who represents Europe as a whole? Aryans?
Rofl.
Yeah so you didn’t read a single article. You didn’t even bother to read the headlines that I copy & pasted for you. How are Germany, Italy, Greece in Eastern Europe? more than half of the articles are about them.
Apart from that I don’t see how your ad hominem attacks are relevant or productive for having this conversation.
Well no. Your premise was anecdotal experience. Your articles are not relevant. Funny how you’re annoyed at someone else’s ad hominem, yet yours is totally valid? Ze victim complex runz deep.
Alright, lets wrap that up, shall we.
After looking at OPs comments and discussing with him it’s clear to me that he posted this article with a clear agenda.
If Israel’s right to exist is a controversial topic, I‘m out.
I have the opinion that it’s not antisemitism to call out an evil government and protest against its actions.
Getting flustered about Germany saying Israel has a right to exist and not understanding historical reasons why that is the case is just naivety I hope.
Bit of a double standard though, right? They don’t have to affirm Palestinian’s right to statehood. If not saying Israel is a legitimate state is anti-semitism, wouldn’t that make the same stance toward Palestine islamaphobia?
Yes. It’s a Double standard. It was born out of history. Namely the genocide on the Jews by the nationalsocialists.
Germany doesn’t have a special history with Palestine, so they don’t get mentioned.
And yes, I think Germany should recognise a Palestinian state.
This is Germany’s “special history” with the Palestinians being created right now. This. This supporting and enabling their genocide.
What does israel have to do with anti-semitsm?
You keep intentionally conflating Judaism and Zionism after been corrected.
Furthermore you don’t appear to know the history of israel. Zionists had been colonizing Palestine years before Hitler came to power.
You got me. I do. I know there is a difference, but in my experience it rarely matters.
But that’s the point. Recognizing israel is absolutely irrelevant to anti-semitism.
If anything israel using Judaism as a shield for their war crimes is the biggest cause of anti-semitism.
So this move by the German government does not combat anti-semitism. It creates anti-semitism by specifically calling israel a “Jewish” state.
I disagree with you.
It’s not illegal to be wrong on the internet, but don’t feel compelled to keep doing so.
You’re free to say why
Recognizing israel is absolutely irrelevant to anti-semitism.
Many people in this thread don’t seem to know this, but within German neo-Nazi movements that’s absolutely wrong. Revoking Israel’s right to exist is the number one talking point of the people doing hitler salutes again.
That’s completely false.
The AfD is full of antisemites. Nonetheless, it fully supports Israel.
Following Hamas’ October 7th attacks, Alexander Gauland (speaking as the honorary AfD chairman) said “The attack was not only aimed at the Jewish state, it was also aimed at us. Israel is the West in an environment that rejects and fights the West. When we stand with Israel, we are also defending our way of life”. This idea of ‘defending a way of life’ is common anti-immigrant rhetoric, and one the AfD frequently utilises to criticise immigration policy in Germany.
If Israel’s right to exist is a controversial topic, I‘m out.
Fuck me, they’re arguing States rights. Is there a playbook for this atrocity denial or what?
Instance checks out
Sorry, I don’t understand you. What do you mean?
Your comment contained an ad-hominem on the comment history of the poster.
The instance you are posting from makes this ironic in relation to the article.
They are saying that your answer is indicative of the attitudes prevalent of your home instance. It’s a very common fediverse method of attempting to dismiss arguments that someone doesn’t agree with but can’t otherwise disprove.
Israel definitely has the right to exist. But so do a hundred odd other countries. Yet you do not acknowledge each of them one by one. All Germany has to do going forward is provide the necessary education on dangers of anti semitism, fascism and take this task very seriously. This is just meaningless over compensation or even worse maybe the result of meaningless lobbying.
Removed by mod
Removed, civility.
Oh hi chancellor of Germany lol
Seems to be a good way to filter out antisemitism.
The anti-semites are probably ecstatic at the whole linking of a nation that commits Genocide and kills little children with snipers, bombs and starvation to the entire Jewish ethnicity.
It makes it incredibly easy for them to grab some particularly nasty action of the state of Israel as an example and say “See, that’s how Jews are like”.
Non-Jews going around telling other people, including Jews, that people who mass murder civilians, including very purposefully children, journalists and medical personnel, represent the Jewsih Religion and hence implying those actions are Jewishness, is the most antisemitic thing around.
What if the antisemites… lie?
True. I think it’s more symbolic.
However what I found out discussing with actual nazis: they don’t really like lying about something which is a core identity of them. They like to weasel around it, but hate saying something like: „all human life is equal.“
yeah sure… antisemites come from other countries to Germany. It’s not like Germany had any history with antisemitism. Just imagine a universe, where Germany killed people, just because they were jewish. Unimaginable! Right?
I think Germany has indeed a deep rooting problem with antisemitism. After all the time that’s concerning.
But no reason letting more into the county, don’t you think?
You know, the Nazis did not only kill Jews, they killed Muslims, Gypsies and homosexuals as well.
So what about them? why not ask if they recognize non-binary genders as well? why not put basic questions about Islam as well on the sheet?
Forget specifics just test for psychological patterns supporting pauschalisierende Ablehnungskonstruktionen. Which run counter to human dignity anyway so in principle, no change in law is needed.
…it also has fuckall to do with states, though. States don’t have human rights.
Yes. And you have point. But Jews were the main enemy and scapegoat of the nazis. That’s just a historical fact.
