I get that it’s open source provided you use codium not code but I still find that interesting
Because the hate is based on their shitty OS. They did a fairly good job with VSCode. Our hate isn’t blind.
VScode is the epitome of the EEE strategy. The core product is open-source, but it’s filled to the brim with tracking and the official extensions have DRM. Yes, there’s DRM on your python LSP.
Anyone who gives a shit should look for alternatives right away. The problem is just that there aren’t any that are as easy to set up.
I think, I should switch to Codium for personal projects. Let’s hope there is a binary package on Gentoo.
I mean, you probably already have electron compiled, no?
No, I don’t. I saw it on Flathub; will install it from there.
Shouldn’t using VSCodium solve the telemetry problem?
Aren’t there FOSS linters which work for VSCodium?
And what would that DRM do?
Make sure that the addons can only be used by VScode. There’s vscodium for now, but microsoft could easily shut that down.
Thank god I do not use python.
Apparently in OP’s case it is.
Yet most project uses GitHub too you know…
This one is a bigger issue. One of the projects I used to contribute to moved to Gitlab, and saw a significant decrease in organic contributors. GitHub simply has more users, better SEO, and a better ecosystem
Personally, I’d like for everything to be on Codeberg or something but I guess that’s far away.
True but GitHub wasn’t always Microsoft and at least in my experience moving between git providers is a pain
GitHub has been recognized as harmful to the free software community at least as early as 2015, years before the Microsoft acquisition. See RMS email on GitHub.
There is more than enough freedom in GitHub to set a license as you see fit. Stallman is being obtuse.
GitHub allows you to select any license (including a proprietary license) or no license at all. This does not mean that GitHub encourages one to select a free software license or any license at all.
In 2014, John Sullivan, then Executive Director of FSF, also asserted that GitHub’s choosealicense.com was anti-copyleft.
Anti-copyleft bias noted by Stallman and Sullivan is evident from the very beginning, from the founder Tom Preston-Werner himself. In 2011, Preston-Werner wrote that one should “open source (almost) everything” under a permissive license, because the GPL is “too dogmatic,” but keep “anything that represents business value” proprietary.
How is it a pain? You just change the origin on your existing project, and new projects you just use the new one to start with.
The pain is with the migration of a ci/cd template to another
You gotta change the origin on every deployment you have. Update environment vars, reconfigure tools. You have to port all your PRs over somehow. Your issues. Your documentation. All the access keys. Etc.
With Gitlab embracing activitypub, at least the issues can bei easily migrated now/soon.
Are they embracing activity pub? I read it is just one guy in the community working in it.
And the vast majority of users are on GitHub, looking for code on there. Having activity pub on other forges will not change that big time:-(
Ony saw this vid about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v68NFdZIMKI
Yeah, github is currently the big cheese. But other forges are still out there and are being used. And since git is an open format, the infrastructure is (a bit) more resilient towards enshittyfication.
Oh, the repository are easy to move.
The bug reports, PRs, wikis, CI/CD are stuck in github though. There is a huge lock in.
I only use vim.
i have been trapped for 2 years now… hope seems pointlessyou get trapped in Vim because you dont know how to exit.
i get trapped because ive sunk so much time configuring
May your vimrc be passed down through the ages
Its all I’m leaving my kids
😂
This is so true
Agreed to the latter point. The only reason why I might not use vim is to copy-paste some code in and out of the file, in which case I prefer plain text editors.
With that said, I’m a purist who uses vim without any external plug-ins (other than the files I wrote myself in
ftplugin). Use vim on a remote machine whilst SSHed into it from a windows machine and wanting to copy-paste stuff in and out is a major pain which is why I downloaded Vscode in the first place. This piece of cancer is not touching my linux machine.based asl for using vim without plugins. although what is difficult about copy/pasting? i think u can get vim to use the system clipboard with a command
VSCode is the only Electron program I know of that does not feel like using McDonald’s kiosk on virtual machine over remote desktop.
I’m thinking of making an Android app with electron (NC I don’t know Java Kotlin whatever lmao) is performance that bad?
Electron is for desktops OSes, so I think SE are talking about different things.
And it’s not only about performance, even when that programs are running on best machines it still looks like alien and not fit.
Over dailup
At least use VSCodium which is VSCode without telemetry/tracking …
Unfortunately it’s not a drop in replacement. The biggest issue was certain extensions are not available on codium.
If you want to support Microsoft then at least give them your personal data too. Don’t tease the poor corpo :-(
No remote SSH extension which I need
Maybe the one suggested in this thread might work for you?
Some people just want to get their work done, instead of jumping through hoops.
My bigger problem is many swear on FLOSS, but using Apple is OK. Go to a FLOSS conference and there are Macs everywhere.
It’s undeniable that Microsoft has had positive influences on the opensource world with language servers, debug adapter protocol, an inbrowser editor that is seemingly embedded in any website with a code editor, cross-platform C# (maybe that’s a curse though, I dunno), linux contributions, and probably more I’m not aware of. Apple… I dunno. Vendor lock-in and more electronic trash?
VSCode isn’t even that good, idk why people are obsessed with it.
For anything compiled, Jetbrains beats it 100:1, and for anything interpreted it’s a couple tiers better than Kate.
Personally, I won’t be losing sleep if I have to stop using VSCode.
If jetbrains is that much better really depends on the language. Also, jetbrains shit is damn expensive, so not a fair comparison.
They have free ‘community editions’, I haven’t really found a need for a licence. I’ve only used IntelliJ, PyCharm, and ReSharper though.
IntelliJ and PyCharm are the only JetBrains IDEs with community editions. If you want to use CLion for example, you’ll either have to be a student or you have to pay.
or the project being opensource(it’s i read right now) don’t know how it work tho
Your project needs to be at least 3 months old with regular commits of code files (text files, readmes, or any other non code don’t count). That’s pretty much it.
I just went through the process, but since my project is only a month old, I got rejected. They told me to apply again in 2 months. My project is in Python, so I’m just using the community edition in the meantime, which is fine. I just really want the test code coverage feature of the paid version.
Also, jetbrains shit is damn expensive
Is it though? Considering the amount of time you spent in it and the potential productivity increase it might give you I’d consider it very fairly priced.
Expensiveness does not have to mean it isn’t priced fairly. Not everyone has the money to drop on tools like it, or is able to get their work to pay for it, even it is worth it.
For some time now I mostly write rust and I’m actually very satisfied with VS Code and rust-analyzer. I tried intelliJ-rust but didn’t find it better. To be fair, I haven’t tried the new jetbrains rust IDE though.
Jetbrains IDEs are not free though are they?
I also quite like the light touch feel you get from code, I can use it for any language and am not going to have to navigate through hundreds of language specific features I don’t need unless I install them myself
Kate might do similar but I can’t imagine the extension pool is big enough to compete and I think at that point I’d just use a commandline editor instead
Some are, the intellij java community edition is even open source. The paid ones are not too expensive, I pay around 200€ yearly for the all products pack and that’s definitely worth it for a professional developer. If you are a student or open source developer, you can apply for free versions also.
The thing is the VS code handles everything (with extensions). If I want to use pandoc, or CSV to markdown table, python linting, Go, whatever, there’s extensions that can handle all of these equally well and consistently, for example format on save.
If I want to use jetbrains then the pycharm for python, intelliJ for Java, Goland for golang… Then there’s licencing depending on whether I’m using a personal licence or corporate laptop, whether I have to get a licence from my employer etc.
For me it’s not so much that it’s so good, but that it works with everything in a consistent and obvious way plus I can install it on any machine I might be using.
The Intellij plugin ecosystem is pretty good. Granted my day job is 80% Java/Kotlin but I also need python and ruby and go and the plug-ins have never let me down. I don’t have pycharm or Ruby Mine or Goland installed.
The license also explicitly lets you use your work license for personal stuff or your personal license for work stuff. The only difference is who pays. You also don’t need a license to use the community edition.
It’s also pretty good at CSV and markdown files. I might be biased because I spend probably 60 hours a week using Intellij but I don’t find any of your points against it to be accurate.
The freemium and constant “are you sure you dont want to pay?” from some intellij plugins is insulting enough that it’s hard to believe any developer would praise it. Presumably this doesnt happen in vscode because it cant happen in vscode, not because people arent shameless enough to do it there.
VSCode is a modern emacs. Similar concept, a single editor to do everything via extensions. That’s the selling point. “young people” never had the chance to work with a similar concept, this is why they found it so revolutionary (despite being a concept from the 70s).
I use it because I am forced to use a windows laptop at work, and emacs on windows is a painful experience
How dare you! Emacs is modern emacs!
Ahahah, emacs is immortal
I use vscode because I do a lot of embedded.
Used to be that you had to jump through some hoops to make it work - make your own makefiles and stuff. Now, all the major vendors of MCUs are starting to develop vscode plugins as their “IDE” instead of those horrible ultramodified eclipse installs.
Exactly. Jetbrains stuff is great.
With one notble exception: Android Studio, but it only sucks only because of the way Android is. And there is no alternative anyway…
I like VSCode because I can run it in a development container and because its the only FOSS IDE with an extension for IEC 61131-3 ST that I am aware of
Your daily reminder that VSCode is shit not because of telemetry (take your time foil hat off for one second and hear me out and I say that jokingly with love) but because the extension marketplace is not allowed to be accessed by third party tools (INCLUDING CODIUM) and even then many of the extensions are proprietary, closed source. You’re not even allowed to distribute compiled VSIX files. It’s disgusting. Reading about the troubles gitpod faced that led to the (now) Eclipse Marketplace (idk the name, but it’s for VS Code plugins, don’t be tricked, it’s just owned by Eclipse foundation) is disheartening.
Those that truly dislike MS and telemetry won’t.
If I’m using non-free it is Jet Brains.
I tend to use Kate, KDevelop.
MS still slurping code into Copilot from Github and telemetry in VSCode.
MS still slurping code into Copilot from […] telemetry in VSCode.
Would you happen to have a source for that? At a cursory glance, it looks like VSCode only does that if you’re using Copilot, but if you don’t have the extension installed they aren’t.
VScode is proprietary and is a black box. The scary think for me is that you don’t know what the program is doing
Time to run VSCodium
Unless Quake was made with Copilot, that seems very unlikely:
Could you get Kate to work with LSP for say svelte or vuejs ?
Kate has native LSP support, which by default uses “typescript-language-server” for JavaScript. As I don’t really do much JavaScript stuff I can’t say how well it works, or if it works with those particular frameworks.
https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/kate/kate/kate-application-plugin-lspclient.html
VSCode is an open source IDE. Its biggest rival is the JetBrains suite. When the alternatives are proprietary, VSCode is a win.
VScode isn’t foss. It just contains some open source code.
It contains mostly open source code. The proprietary binary MS distributes adds very little proprietary stuff to it. You can use the open source version
Code - OSSjust fine or use VSCodium which is based on thatInteresting, how do you get this Code-OSS?
If you’re on Linux, you can download it as a flatpak or if you’re on arch through the package manager. Maybe it’s also in the repositories of other distros but I can’t check that. I also have no idea how to download it on Windows. I would recommend getting VSCodium anyway though. It’s also available as a flatpak, in the AUR and on their website for Windows.
If I was going to use it I would use VScodium.
How do you know what’s in VScode? Its still proprietary.
I mean, that’s what I’m doing
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Remote SSH is the one that I need.
Python extension
Aren’t those features just telemtry and the plugin store (for which there is an open source replacement btw)
Live share, remoting (running over ssh or other) and settings sync are both absent from codium, they’re the ones I know of
Most of Jetbrain’s tools have community editions as well.
The community editions are still proprietary, and they put the most useful tools behind the paywall.
VScode is proprietary as well.
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Let me google that for you, Jetbrains provides a convenient list: https://www.jetbrains.com/products/compare/?product=pycharm&product=pycharm-ce
Neovim user here. Granted it takes some time to setup properly but it’s really fast with navigating through files, lsp functions and doing a search in thousands of files.
I found vscode too slow and bloated for my taste.
Having come from full fat visual studio and using fairly fast machines VS code is a breeze to use.
Though I can’t imagine it can compare to commandline stuff in that regard obviously
Is there much reason to learn vim nowadays? I was under the impression it’s mostly around for people who got used to it back in the day
Knowing vim is pretty essential for working on servers. My usual setup is ssh + tmux + vim. I suppose you could substitute nano for vim if it’s installed.
I know I couldn’t.
I have the exact same setup.
Do you use
tmuxon your main computer, especially if you’re using a WM? I can’t imagine the need fortmuxwith tiling window managers if you have workspaces and can partition windows how you like.Not the GP but I also use tmux (or screen in a pinch) for almost any SSH session, if only as insurance against dropped connections. I occasionally use it for local terminals if there is a chance I might want a command to outlive the current graphical session or migrate to SSH later.
Occasionally it’s nice to be able to control the session from the command line, e.g. splitting a window from a script. I’ve also noticed that wrapping a program in tmux can avoid slowdowns when a command generates a lot of output, depending on the terminal emulator. Some emulators will try to render every update even if it means blocking the output from the program for the GUI to catch up, rather than just updating the state of the terminal in memory and rendering the latest version.
I’ve not run into a server without nano installed yet and it’s perfectly serviceable if all I need is to edit one value in a config file
If you have to ask, maybe not. But if you’re mostly “keyboard driven”, code and edit files a lot, it’s (vim or neovim) very much worth trying out.
It’s great if you get used to it and put in the time to set it the way you want it. I find IDE’s very bloated.
For me personally I am most productive in Neovim. But if you can’t be arsed to fiddle around with config files to get things set up it’s probably not worth the effort.
Use what works best for you.
I’m in my 6th semester and use neovim so no it’s not mostly around for people who got used to it back in the day. A lot of my fellow students use it as well. It’s the only editor I use because you can use it to edit a single file as well as a whole project and everything is always how I want it to be. Also once you get used to it I guarantee you, you will wonder how people navigate code only using mouse and the arrow keys. It is just a beauty to quickly copy a code block or change a word with 3 keystrokes.
I’ve been using VIM for 7 years or so, at this point. I’ve configured it the way I like.
The point of using it is that there is simply no other text editor which lets you edit text in such a manner. Granted, the keyword shortcuts can seem strange and obtuse in the beginning, but get used to it and you wouldn’t want to use anything else anymore. I’m using the VIM extension in VSCode right now and dearly miss my
.vimrcwhich I configured so carefully on my Linux machine.As noted by others, if you do work on remote hosts, it’s priceless. That’s how I got used to it and I now find VSCode slow and unintuitive.
Its not only Microsoft crap, its also an Electron app!
This reminds me of when my dad holds an ideological belief about something based on politicians he doesn’t like who support it.
“Climate change isn’t real because Al Gore…”
“Supply Side Jesus isn’t valid because Al Franken…”
“Affirmative Action is racist because Al Sharpton…”
Actually now that I think about it, maybe he just doesn’t like people named Al…🤔
But anyway, if it’s open source, and the source is sufficiently audited by third parties, and I’m able to compile and run it myself, and running it doesn’t have undesired behavior (telemetry etc) then I don’t care who wrote it, because it does exactly what I need it to.
I hate Google but they gave us Go, Kubernetes. I hate Amazon but they gave us AWS. I plainly hate those companies, but adore the brilliant engineers that work there.
Choosing not to use good software from the same company just because another software they offer is subpar would be an unreasonable decision.
Kind of the conclusion I’d come to.
Would you use excel if it were on Linux? It’s one of the other few Microsoft products I think is actually pretty good.
Obviously not foss but still
Microsoft Office suite is obviously superior to its concurrents. If it were available on linux I’d use it, despite being about FOSS ideology. Sometimes, non-FOSS can be better alternatives. However, OnlyOffice is still neat and gets the job done.
It’s a battle they are going to lose in the long run. When you write closed sourge code, you make a bet that you’re better than all available FOSS developers in the field.
Didn’t Excel make a big fuss about python integration when Libreoofice has had that for years?
Microsoft Office suite is obviously superior to its concurrents.
No, and it never was. There are/were always equal alternatives. It has always been their marketing power that made them (seemingly) win.
Whoops
Excel is def the mkt leader for a reason
I loathe Ms Access but have to admit there is no peer that even comes close.
Vs code is relatively reliable, cross platform and gets the job done. When there are a lot of people “one way that works for all” is a quality as well.
That said, I wish open offices were better. Even Apple numbers isn’t a realistic excel alt yet (though it is super decent). And I agree there are plenty of editors that work in many situations.
Ohh can you do Exel-Style arithmetics in Word tables? You can in LibreOffice. Maybe it’s just so widely used no one really knows other Office programs are basically on par with MS Office or even better.
LibreOffice UI is really… well… old. UX is really bad : it’s on par with GIMP’s ideology of “make it as hard as possible to get things done”
I disagree. I actually like the LibreOffice, non-tabbed, UI. It’s a UI/UX that I’m used to from Office 2003 and honestly prefer. The 2007+ ribbon interface makes things harder for me to find.
Like I’m used to GIMP and can’t do shit in photoshop. That doesn’t mean the UX is good though, just that you got used to it and are not willing to change.
You know there are like 7 different layouts built in and you can create custom ones. You can even make it look like world if you like.
I would use Markdown editors for literally all office tasks if I could.
Ok but most people only use very basic features of Excel and would be fine with a version from the early 2000’s. The spreadsheet market has caught up and they’d be fine with basically any product at this point. The only thing propping up Microsoft Office is the subtle incompatibilities they’ve slipped into their file formats, that people don’t want to deal with. That and the fact most people get to use their Office free one way or another, and “it’s what I’m used to”.
I don’t think I’ve touched actual desktop Office in more than a decade now. Even in a corporate environment it’s mostly their online version that gets used 90% of time by 90% of people.
Everybody needs just a small subset of that excel does, but everybody needs a different subset.
If you do not have all the features, most of your users will be missing something that is critical to their use case.
That may be but it doesn’t mean those subsets put together amount to more than just basic functionality.
What basic functionality does Excel have that can’t you can’t find in other spreadsheet products?
I prefer google docs because it’s accessible through a browser wherever I want.
You can use cryptdrive, it’s on par with google docs spreadsheet.
Is it better than google docs spreadsheet?
Try it, it is free. It is the online implementation of OnlyOffice
