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You can’t compare these 2 conflicts at all.
Idk if this is a hot take, but imo the war in Ukraine is pretty clear city while the Palestinian and Israeli conflict his an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances.
It’s far less controversial to say the former is Russia’s fault than it is to say the latter is either Palestine’s or Israel’s fault.
Yeah mostly because isreal/ Palestine conflict is much older then russia/Ukraine so a lot of things happened. But at it’s very core they both started because of the same claim : russia claimed used to own Ukraine so they want it back. The jews used to own Palestine so they want it back. So if you support Ukraine and isreal you’re just a hypocrite
I haven’t seen anyone here “support Israel”. Almost everyone agrees that the Israeli State is not free of guilt, far from it.
What people really disagree over is whether that alone makes Palestine right (nuanced) and whether it justifies Hamas’ actions (unhinged but unfortunately semi-common take on here).
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more nuanced. Both countries’ current heads of state are kinda like “all this land is my country’s, the other country should not exist.” It’s unclear who is right.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other, the other just want it back. Ukraine’s government is not claiming half of Russia.
“Unclear who is right”
No it’s pretty clear, out with the colonizer government. How is this a question?
Edit: removed implied support for Hamas. Both militaries should burn. Hope for a quick end to the conflict for the sake of the civilians affected.
At the end of the day who is Isreal and who Palestine. If no one who was alive when Palestine was around can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to “Palestine”. It’s like the ship Theseus or something. Maybe I’m just dumb as fuck.
Just make the fuck up and work together instead of being greedy bigots.
can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to “Palestine”
You should tell that to Israel, which is expelling Palestinians from this land every week for decades. It is not the Palestinians who are claiming the land exclusively to themselves and expelling others from it. It is Israel doing that. I find it crazy that you somehow argue this as if Palestine is doing that.
Palestinians lost the wars. Multiple wars. At this point there really isn’t a point in contesting against Israel when they can integrate with Israel peacefully instead.
Israel is not offering “peaceful integration”. Have a look at Palestinians who already live outside of Gaza, in the rest of occupied Palestine. The only choices are leave, suffer or resist.
Palestinians don’t offer peaceful integration either, since they like to resist so much as a group that Israelis don’t know who they can trust.
Your sentence doesn’t make sense. Moreover, the Palestinian stance of most groups has been integration and living together peacefully and happily. “Resisting” their expulsion and the murder against them does not contradict that.
all this land is my country’s, the other country should not exist.
One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?
If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says “your country shouldn’t exist only mine!” and I am a country that multi-religious, and say “actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one”, you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other
Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
I am not claiming what Russia is saying is true, but it is not what you make it seem to make your argument.
Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
Is that the line this week? They’ve been moving the goalposts so rapidly they must be on wheels (and better maintained wheels than the Russian army)
The Russian propagandista changed their lines so many times it’s blindingly obvious that there’s no greater good and it was supposed to be a land-grab just like when they invaded and annexed Crimea
Its unlcear who is right? Tell me, who lived there first before the US swung its dick around and displaced all of them?
True
“Lets have some nuance” people on their way to defend Nazi war criminals
IMO everyone should leave everyone else the fuck alone and stop trying to be modern empires, but come on man, these are VERY different situations.
ho boy, here we go again.
At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it. So all I can do is judge both sides by their current actions without historical justification which, to me, results in fanatical religious fascists fighting fanatical religious fascists with neither side caring for civilian casualties. Not exactly a situation in which I’d support any side tbh.
Thank you. There’s way too many people claiming one or the other side is justified or worse and frankly at this point they’ve both committed so many atrocities against one another that it’s hard to have an emotional or subjective response other than, they’re both pretty shitty.
Also just looking at history isn’t going to solve anything. If that was the only solution we can just get any map remove all borders everywhere and discus how to draw them based on history. We all know this is just going to be a never ending discussion because it just depends on what snapshot in time (of the world) you take as your truth.
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Israel has been doing this shit for decades. It’s just blowback of unending oppression by Israel. People in Palestine can either wait and get genocided or fight back.
Lol yup Israel has been taking down buildings for years taking people’s life, history and financial gain and turn it to rubble because someone in the building may have helped hamas. No trial, no questioning, just a small bomb going off on your roof too warn you to run the fuck away before you die in a collapsed building.
But Ukraine hasn’t done any of this type of stuff so the equivalence falls apart.
For the record: israel bad.
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Uh, almost certainly they have done that or something akin to it, I wouldn’t defend either side, they’ve both done countless atrocities to one another and people from outside.
I’m confused… Are the only choices hamas or Israel? Is that how people really see things?
I fucking hate this world sometimes.
HAMAS isn’t Palestine. Israel isn’t Judaism.
And Israel has a history of propping up Hamas. They even admit it.
Hamas is the only defense of Palestine. Zionists are one of the most evil bunch on Earth.
Warning: Some super-unique hot takes from edgelords here!
Proceed with caution…
Launching rockets at civilians isn’t glorious whether you’re Russian or Palestinian.
Or Israeli
Sure.
I like how you were downvoted for this. No you need to choose a side that you support 100%!!
I think maybe a lot of people failed to see that “Sure.” doesn’t necessarily mean sarcasm, and didn’t used to.
lemm ee and dbzer0 users on their way to passively support whatever evil regime is in power
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Maybe you should have checked to see who is hosting this community.
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Both suck to be fair but Israel for me suck less. My reasoning mostly stem on their Ideology. Israel leans more to the US. Israel though recently leaning more to the extreme right, is still liberal compared to the rest of the nations in middle east. Woman has more freedom under Israel it seems. LGBT is more supported in Israel. For Hamas on the other hand has the same vibe for me with Taliban it doesn’t help that it is supported by Iran and Russia. As for Ukraine I support them since they lean more to the West (EU and the US) and they are more democratic than Russia. That’s my thought anyway.
So you support Israel committing genocide in Palestine because they lean west. Way to go lil bro
Curious, Tell me why should I support the Hamas instead?
You should not. But you should see the conditions under which Hamas has formed and how the Occupiers are at fault for this. The greater Palestinian cause is far more in the moral right than Israel has ever been.
Thanks appreciate the answer.
Emotional responses don’t lead to any solutions. Only reason will create a peaceful two state solution.
The Victims should never bargain with the invaders. Slava Ukraini Slava Palestini.
“I support the fascistsdoing a genocide because they’re aligned with us and do our bidding” is the kind of honesty we’re looking for from liberals on foreign policy.
Genuinely, thank you for your honesty. Can you please tell the rest of the libs to communicate like this and we wouldn’t be as mean to them.
To be fair that is what both sides are doing China, Russia, US, EU, India and Iran. They all support those who do their bidding. Though I have a feeling everything is fascist on your dictionary that does not align with your view.
Counterpoint: aligning with the west/the US is bad.
Counter-counterpoint : alternative is WAY worse. Unless you count EU as dissimilar to US?
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And why is that?
Palestine needs a state and so does Israel
Broke: Two-state solution
Woke: One-state solution
Bespoke: Zero-state solution
Ukraine is simply more important to the countries bordering russia, the EU and it’s allies
Ukraine is a sovereign nation that got attacked by another country.
Palestine just carried out a horrible attack on Israel. Plus the history of Israel and Palestine is totally different. It’s just apples and oranges. I’m not claiming in any way Israel is right here, but Hamas is definitely scum of the Earth.
I’m so proud of my government for acting consistently. They support Russia and Israel.
(I get why they’re doing it, but it still feels wrong.)
Let me guess… India?
Of course. Russia I expected, but I didn’t know our government wanted Pegasus so badly.
BJP hates democracy (they literally always say “too much democracy”) and socialist activists. BJP aligns with Russia only because Hindutva rightwingers are bigots that align with anti-LGBT culture among socially right leaning Russians, and because BJP leverages the age old relations we have had with Russia for ever, that Congress laid the foundations for.
I don’t think ideology has anything to do with the decision to keep quiet on Ukraine. India needs Russian fertiliser and oil, and does not want global wheat shortages that could raise the domestic price of food. So I don’t think the decision would have been different if the UPA was in power.
The reason is different for BJP and Congress. Congress never needed to do anything else, India has had considerable global soft power and peaceful social atmosphere under them.
Currently, BJP knows it has a very specific voter base (upper caste Kshatriyas/Brahmins/Baniyas ≈ 40%) within which people are starting to stop supporting Modi, because favours for Adani and big oligarchs. Modi wants to seize this moment to hang onto the balls of Xi and Putin, to become part of the new “vishwaguru” (world leader) polar hegemony, and become immortal in historical books for somehow uplifting India, even though India has become a trashy disturbed country since BJP came into power. This is the reason almost nobody knows or talks about. BJP knows the way it has thrown all of its critics and journalists in jail (and bought out all of TV news outlets) undemocratically, if they are elected out of power, all of them will find themselves jailed and possibly even hanged within months.
India’s needs for food and other goods is just an outcome of a great long term mutual relation with Russia, resulting in bilateral normalcy.
Reminder that the OUN, which helped do the holocaust, used the phrase “Slava Ukraini” as their motto
