Yes hamas has to be removed because they are terrorist, they will lead to the deaths of civilians on both sides and have caused many deaths. Civilians are given the opportunity to flea, they should leave, why would they stay ? To be propaganda martyrs?
You are a crisis actor, you act like you have this moral principle that we have to protect the Innocents at all costs but when the pals routinely target civilians you say nothing
Hamas targets children , the pals support it, they are the bad guys. Israel does not target civilians hamas hides behind them, they are the unobjectively the bad guys
If this is your yardstick, Palestinians are much much more likely to support killing Israelis “just because” than the other way around. There’s really no moral high ground in this conflict
Take a look at Palestinian deaths vs Israeli deaths. Israel has been much more successful at killing Palestinians “just because” than the other way around.
Israel kills more civilians than Palestinian orgs do. Palestinian orgs target civilians in a way that Israel simply doesn’t. Focusing on Israeli excesses without acknowledging how many Palestinians really, actually, want to exterminate all jews is just as disingenuous as focusing on Israeli security concerns without acknowledging the deprivations they impose on Palestinians.
In danger of repeating myself, no moral high ground to be found.
Don’t worry, fascist… I’ll once again translate for the people that don’t speak your language - Israel is bombing the children, and white supremacists should rejoice.
You need me to translate your fascist-speak again? Sure… this time, you’re saying - I really hate it when people translate my fascist-speak into something humans can understand.
Fine… if you insist, I’ll translate your fascism-speak once more. This time, you’re saying - I really, reaaaallly hate it when people translate my fascist-speak into something humans can understand.
Neither party is in the right. While yes Israel does normally give warning and time to evacuate in this recent conflict Israel has repeatedly told civilians to evacuate to areas and then shelled and/or bomb those areas specifically evacuation corridors. There’s simply isn’t enough area in the strip for people to evacuate or move out of the way to.
Israel is objectively in the right. The only perspective where they are not is if you are an Islamic fascist who believes God wrote the quaran to Mohammed and hamas has interpreted it correctly to say the entire world should be compelled to be a Muslim theocracy.
Every war results in civilian deaths, WW2, the civil war etc… Hamas hides behind civilians , in the history of the world there is not a nation which has taken more steps to avoid civilian casualties of its enemies than Israel
Wtf kind of rhetoric is this? There is no objectively right side in this conflict. It’s just evil people doing evil shit and the average person suffering because of it.
Yes there is an objectively right side, 1 side may not be perfect but there is 1 side that is evil- the Islamic fascists.
Like 9/11, yes america has made foreign policy errors however to hijack planes and crash them into buildings is evil. Yes they celebrated in Palestine and throughout the Arab world and civilians died hunting down al qaeda but it was appropriate to do.
If you are American you are living on colonized land, you are considered evil by the Islamic fascists, do you think someone is justified to break onto house and stab you, to target you as infidel explicitly. That is not the same as responding to that attack and the evil terrorist is hiding behind civilians (who support him) and them being killed despite taking numerous steps to avoid them.
The Islamic fascists are objectively wrong, they believe that a medieval warlords poetry comes from God and kill anyone that disagree, ISIS did this things in Kurdistan, just killing everyone and taking sex slaves. They are objectively evil and wrong and it is an intellectual and moral weakness if you can’t distinguish this
I don’t think you’ll find many people on lemmy who will agree that the US is objectively right in virtually any conflict. I remember even on the day 9/11 was happening people were saying how this was the chicken coming home to roost. Civilians don’t deserve any of this, but the actions of their country – against their will – started a chain reaction that lead to this terrorist attack.
That’s not to excuse terrorist acts. But they don’t come out of nowhere - they always feed on some legitimate grievance, or else they would have no recruits.
Yeah some people did cheer 9/11 but these are morally weak people.
If Israel killed 2 million gazans tomorrow they could say look at what they did and I don’t think the people who said the 9/11 terrorists had their reason would endorse killing 2 million Muslims.
This is what moral reasoning is, just because 1 side isn’t perfect doesn’t mean that the other side is evil or wrong.
You can see that the Islamic fascists rely obscuring issues, propaganda, yelling slogans in unison.
To parse facts is difficult but it is not difficult to see that islam is a fascist ideaology unwilling to be peaceful and Israel has made numerous steps and concessions to peace.
You could say that ISIS is justified to genocide the kurds for some reason, you can say the Nazis were justified, that Germany was decimated… It doesn’t occur in a vacuum, but then to turn around and be sympathetic to the Nazis who were bombed? Yeah many people are, they see the Nazis as justified and lament their oppression, but they are idiots.
You seem to assume that there are two possible positions: Hamas must be supported in what they do to Israelis, or the Israeli government must be supported in what they do to Palestinians. This dichotomy is bullshit. The Israeli government can theoretically be changed through democracy to put people that want to coexist with Palestinians in power. Palestine could theoretically have an anti-Hamas organization come to power who work towards coexistence.
However, the campaign of terror that Israel has waged against Palestinians for decades makes it hard for them to want coexistence. Conversely, the threat of Hamas feeds Islamophobic sentiment in Israel, allowing wannabe fascists like Bibi to gain power.
Bibi actually fucked up by not preparing for the attack and not seeing it coming in the first place. Israelis are pissed and it’s predicted that Netanyahu will lose power when things quiet down. Unfortunately, this gives the current government the perverse incentive to continually escalate the war for as long as possible while showing strength against Hamas in the hopes that right wing Israelis forgive them for their incompetence.
To change Israelis leadership, foreigners who want peace should encourage Israel to deescalate the war, and one way to do that might be to prevent both sides from getting the weapons needed to prolong the war. We should sanction Hamas and help Israel stop weapons flow into Gaza, but we should also not give Israel any weapons that fuel their attacks with high collateral damage. No artillery, try to end the blockade of essential resources by helping to police imports, and other techniques to keep Israel from widening the war. Tell them that they will not receive support if they encourage clashes with foreign adversaries. Tell them to only defend settlements in the West Bank and not carry out preemptive attacks.
I doubt Biden will do enough to deescalate, but there is a possibility that he will try to avoid a broader war. The US congress will totally give terrible weapons to Israel with bipartisan support, only helping Netanyahu stay in power.
What’s unforgivable about the response from the West is that many, like you, conflate the desire for peace with support for Hamas. It doesn’t matter if you say Hamas are fascists that must be destroyed, you have to believe that killing Palestinians is the only solution. The only way for the IDF’s strategy to destroy Hamas to work, is if they kill all Palestinians in the West Bank. They could kill 10k, 100k, 1 million, or even 2 million Gazans, but the remaining Palestinians will be no less radicalized. Hell, they’ll probably be even more radicalized than before.
The only way to kill Hamas without genocide is to give Gazans a serious way to improve their conditions. Israel should give billions to the most benevolent Palestinian organizations to invest in the country. They could give Palestinians voting rights and equal access to social services, effectively turning what is currently Isreal into a secular, federal state. The only other way that Israelis could get rid of Hamas is to turn Palestine into a maximally authoritarian police state, and in addition to being very expensive, they’ll probably have settlers push Palestinians out over time, resulting in a slower genocide.
The actual dichotomy isn’t Netanyahu or Hamas, it’s financially cheap genocide, or expensive peace, with slow and expensive genocide existing in between. Not all problems are best solved through violence.
I don’t think you know or understand the history of the conflict at all.
As I’ve said in other comments, and these are the simple facts of the conflict- that Israel has always been willing to and wanted to live in peace with Palestinians, that they accepted then 1948 partition, that they didn’t control the WB and Gaza until the 1967 war, have offered the pals states numerous times and they arabs live freely in Israel. OTOH pals have been explicit that there can be no Jewish state on any form, no Jewish presence, and vowed to fight to the death against it. These are the facts. The Jews, who are the natives of the land have made numerous concessions and the arabs who are from other places have not made any concessions from their demands which is absolute Islamic fascism.
Every ‘campaign’ of the Israelis to restrict Palestinians has been the result of massive terror campaigns which the pals have vowed to as long as Israel exists.
Maybe not every response of Israel has been exactly measured but the genesis of the conflict is clear, that the Islamic fascist are not willing to accept a non Muslim presence in any form, and they are the occupiers, Jews are the natives of the land. Everyone knows that Jerusalem, Hebron, nazereth etc… Are all cities built by Jews.
West bank and Gaza are given a ton of aid and if they accepted a state would be living in wealth, living well is not their objective or at least not the objective of the government. They say explicitly they desire death, they they love death more than Jews love life.
You are intellectually weak and have no moral spine
I’m sorry you can’t view people as anything more than a horde. It must be hard to interact with children from an out group. They may look cute and innocent, but they’re just future enemies!
I do view people as individuals and some people are individuals and some people just function as hordes. In some places that is greater proportion of people who are individuals as opposed to hordes than in other places.
First of all Israel is a western democracy and is not government based on Judaism any more than Britain is government based on Christianity.
Second of all there is a reason that Jewish based relations spread around the world, and that is because there is a true element which is consistent with Aristotle and Hinduism , that the nature of world is that there exists a creator being who is detached from all else. Many important things have come from this true conception of the universe, but one of them is not that the entire world should be government by the poetry of a medevil warlord
ALL abrahamic religions are founded on lies. The book of Genesis is part of the Torah and exists solely to indoctrinate prejudice against women. They are all bullshit.
That is not true. For good or bad these are the most ancient myths of humanity,stories used to transmit ideas before writing was invented and written down at the neolithic revolution.
Men and women are of different natures … In truth Adam , eve, and the snake are all one being and exists inside every person. In the story God only speaks to Adam , Adam speaks to eve and eve to the snake as this is how they are connected in the brain/soul
The snake is not specifically evil, but relates to physical needs eg food, sex.
It’s possible for more than one thing to be true at the same time.
It’s true that Hamas is a terrorist organization, yes.
However it’s also true that the Israeli government is undertaking actions which are fitting for a genocidal, fascist government. Do you seriously thing that their 24 hour evacuation notice sent to an excess of 1 million people who had/have no power, water, heat, or communications is reasonable?
Yeah they are. First of all pals aren’t a race, they are arabs and there are hundreds of millions of arbas.
Secondly the causality in this conflict are in no way ‘genocidal’ even if you were to consider pals a race. They’ve been given warning to flee the fighting, it’s simply a term being used as propaganda, 'the genocide of children '…
They’re not being killed because of who they are, they are being killed because they launched a war. They are ‘genocidal’ against Jews, it says openly in their charter.
You can look back at history and see Israel has been willing to live in peace with pals, offered numerous states, arabs live freely in Israel, pals have waged war against any Jewish presence in the land, they are genocidal.
Israel is giving notice before they attack to flea, the pals intentionally target civilians. Of course the people attacking civilians are going to lie about everything. It is the most pathetic and disgusting people
“gen·o·cide
[ˈjenəˌsīd]
NOUN
the deliberate killing or severe mistreatment of a large number of people from a particular national or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.”
Genocide has never been about race. Many of the historic genocides have been commited by people of the same race just another distant group in that race.
Uh… I know this is too much for your brain to comprehend, but Arabs (the race) are only people from the Arab peninsula. Palestinians, along with Jordanians and the like, are Levantine, a completely different ethnic group.
They can’t go into Israel because they are murderous terrorists. There is no reason they can’t go into Egypt. If they broke into Egypt the egyptians would kill all of them and no one would complain.
If they broke into Egypt the egyptians would kill all of them
🤦♂️I can’t believe you’ve been internally inconsistent twice in a row after it being pointed out.
Let me get this straight: Every, single, person in the Gaza strip is a terrorist, and they are simultaneously not trapped, and if they try to leave they would be killed.
Pro tip: say things back to yourself once before saying them. Just to make sure they’re not dumb.
The cognitive dissonance you have is mind-blowing (this means you think conflicting things to justify your hateful beliefs)
The pals would like to go to Egypt, Egypt won’t let them in, if pals tried to force their way in Egypt would kill them because they don’t want them. How hard is that to understand ?
Do you have another explanation for why pals aren’t going to Egypt? I remember a couple of weeks ago there was a lie that Israel bombed the rafah crossing but it was made up like everything else. So what’s your answer ?
Would you rather I call it by some fluffy, feel-good term like special operation? Elimination of the enemy? Opening a retaliatory assault on the Gaza strip while running a propaganda campaign aligning Hamas with groups like Isis or the Nazis, and portraying the Palestinian people as wholly supporting Hamas does nothing but provide justification for civilian casualties.
You are correct that a country may not normally provide advance warning of assault, however an unreasonable warning is as good as no warning and again, only serves to justify the deaths of any innocents that weren’t able to evacuate in time.
Israel has one of the best special forces units on earth, total control of what comes in and out of the strip, and the funding of the world’s second largest military, and you seriously believe they need to commit to clicking the delete button on the Gaza strip to remove a militant group from an area smaller than new york?
Several days of warning is more than sufficient, most people have in fact evacuated.
Israel does not control everything as you can see Hamas has thousands of rockets despite Israels efforts.
If pals indiscriminately fire rockets, the fact Israel doesn’t indiscriminately fire rockets is restraint. There are conflicts like this all of the Mideast and the reason they don’t fire rockets into Saudi arabia or syria is because they would kill them by the millions.
Hamas has broad support from pals, but if they don’t then what is your issue in the war to remove them ?
With all honestly, especially with the massacres that have been taking place last night, where Israel cut off all internet and networks, making it impossible for ambulances to operate, it really is Israel creating propaganda against Palestinians, not very different from how Nazi Germnay made up bullshit about Jews, a lot of propaganda not too different from the propaganda being used to justify murdering Palestinian children. Netanyahu is butchering Palestinians in Gaza now under the idea of a “final solution”. Israel’s constant obsession with not covering news from Gaza is no different from Nazi Germany hiding their atrocities from the public. Palestinians are considered “outsiders”, just like the Jews in Nazi Germany. There are apartheid areas that Palestinians can’t enter even though the territory was supposed to be under Palestinian rule. Palestinians are losing their jobs, losing their homes, their shops, not much different. Being demonized, deported, ignored, tortured, all of these are things Palestinian victims and holocaust victims have together.
Ambulances cant operate without the internet ? Ok. It’s a war, there will be suffering. Hamas could release the hostages and stop firing rockets…
Pals don’t have freedom because they are at constant war. They had every opportunity for a state and they chose war. Pal territory was controlled by Jordan and Egypt until 1966 and there was war
Pals are given the opportunity to flea a war zone, it is nothing like the Holocaust. This isn’t even like black September, the Syrian civil war or any other Arab conflict where the Muslims are much more severe let alone the Holocaust. Even if Israel killed literally millions of Palestinians it would not be like the Holocaust , the pals are devoted to fighting the jews, the Jews were not a threat to Germany in any way.
Ambulances cant operate without the internet ? Ok. It’s a war, there will be suffering. Hamas could release the hostages and stop firing rockets…
Pals don’t have freedom because they are at constant war. They had every opportunity for a state and they chose war. Pal territory was controlled by Jordan and Egypt until 1966 and there was war
Pals are given the opportunity to flea a war zone, it is nothing like the Holocaust. This isn’t even like black September, the Syrian civil war or any other Arab conflict where the Muslims are much more severe let alone the Holocaust. Even if Israel killed literally millions of Palestinians it would not be like the Holocaust , the pals are devoted to fighting the jews, the Jews were not a threat to Germany in any way.
Fact is Muslims live freely as equal citizens in Israel and have no desire to live under Palestinian authority.
Jews cannot live freely in a Muslim country and have had laws discriminating against Jews for hundreds of years. Judaism predates islam not only in Israel but in Iran, Iraq,syria, Egypt, Morocco and in all these places there are and have always been discriminatory laws against Jews.
Jewish people are the natives of the land, the aqsa mosque is built on the Jewish temple, the premise of Islam is there can be no Jewish state or Jewish freedom anywhere and not in the land to which they are native, it is all Muslim dictatorships from Morocco to Pakistan, they are fascist
Palestinian Moslems and Christians and Jews are very much natives of the land. It’s the same fucking people, a number of which changed religion in the 2500 years since the Diaspora started.
Denying that is the #1 lie of Israeli fascists. If you wanna be a Zionist go back to Herzl and actually strive towards living in harmony with your brothers and sisters.
There are druze , circassions, Muslim immigrants who came hundreds of years ago,.some came when the Jews came, there are many different groups but everyone knows that Jews are native to the land
but everyone knows that Jews are native to the land
I mean… yes and no? Filipinos aren’t native to Saudi Arabia just because they happen to be Muslim.
The Jews got ethnically cleansed out of the area ballpark 500BC when Babylonians conquered it, then when Persians conquered it less than 100 years later they were allowed to return. Islam and Christianity didn’t exist at that time. Ashkenazi in particular stem from a Jewish community in Rome, ca. 200BC, that is they’re part of the diaspora which didn’t return immediately.
Now it’s over 2000 years later and while I wouldn’t want to deny anyone the right to move to a place of religious and cultural importance to their ethnicity, but bloody behave yourselves while doing it. The Palestinians aren’t the Babylonians, they’re the descendants of people who returned early to those lands. And that’s actually what Herzl and the early Zionists did, but then nationalistic chauvinists came along, including people who aligned with fucking Nazis like the Stern Gang, and everything went, predictably, to shit. From that general fascist direction also things like forced sterilisation of black Jews in Israel.
Deal with those people, for starters, don’t have Ben-Gvir as minister for national security, accept that they’re the same shit as Hamas and Nazis just with a different coat of paint and act accordingly. Once the Israeli civil society gets around to do that a lot of people would be way more receptive to the idea of “but but Israel is the good guy here”. Once you stop making excuses for fascists and fascist rhetoric and myths. I know the average Israeli isn’t a fascist, they’re centre-left, but boy is there a blind spot when it comes to “security” rhetoric.
Arabs are native to Saudi arabia, Islam is an Arab religion but not all Muslims are arabs. It’s like the difference between being Italian and Catholic. Judaism is an ethno religion, they don’t convert and they don’t force people to convert as Muslims do.
Some pals may be defended from Jews but many groups traveled through the region over the years and there was never a cohesive Palestinian identity. Under Muslim rule there were laws against non Muslims immigrating. Under British rule Jews were allowed but so were Muslims and many Muslims immigrated at this time as Jews developed the land.
The arabs sided with the Nazis in the war and sought to restrict Jewish immigration. The British mandate of Palestine was all of current day Israel and Jordan. The Balfour declaration divided Palestine into Jordan and Israel, with Jews only allowed in Israel and Muslims allowed every where. Jordan was given to the 'heshemite ’ family who is not native, the entire country was given as a kingdom to a single family not from the region… in 1948 Palestine was further partitioned into areas where Jews were allowed and where they were not with a small Jewish state of mostly desert and swamp in Palestine, the Jews accepted and the arabs went to war. Before that point there was no Arab displacement or intention to but after the war many arabs were pushed out. Look up the 1948 partition. So at that point the Jews who were refugees from Europe were able to immigrate to Israel.
The arabs launched wars against the existence of Israel in 1955, 1968, 1973 , while Jordan controlled the west bank they never thought of making it a Palestinian state… When Israel controlled it they offered the pals states numerous times but from the beginning the pals refused because they will not recognize a Jewish state of any form as they have from the beginning, as it’s part of their fascist religion
I don’t see why there can’t be a Jewish state, and furthermore why Jews can’t live freely in the west bank, in Jordan, and even in Iraq , of Muslims can live freely in Israel why it the reverse ? Even under the occupation pals in the west bank have a better quality of life than most Arab countries and Gaza was way better off before Hamas. Israel has made rons of concessions to peace and that was their mistake, because they were naive leftists who believed that if they make steps towards peace the pals will reciprocate. What happened was they gave pals an inch , the pals used everything for terrorism, Israel clamped down and now the Islamic fascist regime uses thata as a pretext for terrorism.
Israel has made rons of concessions to peace and that was their mistake
No. The mistake was to first not nib groups like the Stern Gang in the bud, and then later on let that kind of thinking fester. You’re talking about wars against Israel’s existence but don’t mention that there were Jews in mandate Palestine which organised massacres against Arabs.
Are you aware of the term “Vergangenheitsbewältigung”? Israel has to face that aspect of its past. Come to terms with it. Stop casting themselves as only always the victim and ever only the victim and oh are all others always so mean, but instead accept, as history and as responsibility, that the state was funded in part on things like this:
Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: “Ye shall blot them out to the last man.”
Yep that’s Stern Gang. Remember that, as well as that they tried to ally with the Nazis, the next time you try to cast Palestinians as Nazis, or, worse, try to make them responsible for the Holocaust.
Jews faces discrimination in every Arab country. When the ottomans controlled Palestine there were laws against Jewish immigration, and of course not Muslim immigration. Yes Islam has been fascist for many centuries. Jews were restricted from immigrating and then when they were able to they attacked and responded to various degrees. It’s ridiculous to think that it’s not Muslims who instigated the attacks… Do you think small numbers of Jews immigrated and immediately attacked Muslims ?
So you think the Celts should kill all French and Germans, right? I mean they are native to the land, their ancestors were there before the Romans and the Germanic tribes
Jews are the natives of the land. So if you could imagine the British not allowing celts in England. Or white people not allowing native Americans in the US.
There are native people to the land who are Jewish. That does not mean that all Jews globally are native to Palestine or that only Jews are native to the land.
There are still some Celts in continental Europe (mostly in Brittany). So thus the Irish, Scottish, Cornish, Welsh, Manx, and such are all totally justified in settling and displacing everywhere their ancestors have ever lived, right?
So if you could imagine the British not allowing celts in England.
Don’t you know? The Celts settled the British Isles and Ireland and displaced the people living there in the iron age
Jews originated in Israel, this is a fact. Jews have always been willing to live with arabs in Israel. It is the arbasnwho have launched war against any Jews in the land, the land to which they are native.
It would be like all the non Irish groups in Ireland saying that the Irish can’t live their etc…
They are targeting Hamas, they gave notice to civilians to evacuate. Your ‘theyre bombing the children’ is just reciting terrorist propaganda.
Hamas’ targeted civilians, Hamas hides behind civilians.
For those that don’t speak fascist, I’ll happily translate - Israel is bombing the children.
Hamas targets children, Hamas hides behind children, Hamas is explicitly fascist, if they could kill you for your lifestyle they would.
So you mean to say we must kill Hamas at all cost, even if we have to bomb the children?
Yes hamas has to be removed because they are terrorist, they will lead to the deaths of civilians on both sides and have caused many deaths. Civilians are given the opportunity to flea, they should leave, why would they stay ? To be propaganda martyrs?
You are a crisis actor, you act like you have this moral principle that we have to protect the Innocents at all costs but when the pals routinely target civilians you say nothing
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Hamas targets children , the pals support it, they are the bad guys. Israel does not target civilians hamas hides behind them, they are the unobjectively the bad guys
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If this is your yardstick, Palestinians are much much more likely to support killing Israelis “just because” than the other way around. There’s really no moral high ground in this conflict
Take a look at Palestinian deaths vs Israeli deaths. Israel has been much more successful at killing Palestinians “just because” than the other way around.
Israel kills more civilians than Palestinian orgs do. Palestinian orgs target civilians in a way that Israel simply doesn’t. Focusing on Israeli excesses without acknowledging how many Palestinians really, actually, want to exterminate all jews is just as disingenuous as focusing on Israeli security concerns without acknowledging the deprivations they impose on Palestinians.
In danger of repeating myself, no moral high ground to be found.
Isreal government are also terrorists.
Don’t worry, fascist… I’ll once again translate for the people that don’t speak your language - Israel is bombing the children, and white supremacists should rejoice.
You just repeat slogans, you don’t actually make sense.
You need me to translate your fascist-speak again? Sure… this time, you’re saying - I really hate it when people translate my fascist-speak into something humans can understand.
You don’t make an argument you don’t realize how wrong you are, you just have a feeling and make these vague childish comments
Fine… if you insist, I’ll translate your fascism-speak once more. This time, you’re saying - I really, reaaaallly hate it when people translate my fascist-speak into something humans can understand.
you sound like the greasiest mall ninja ever, dude.
Neither party is in the right. While yes Israel does normally give warning and time to evacuate in this recent conflict Israel has repeatedly told civilians to evacuate to areas and then shelled and/or bomb those areas specifically evacuation corridors. There’s simply isn’t enough area in the strip for people to evacuate or move out of the way to.
Israel is objectively in the right. The only perspective where they are not is if you are an Islamic fascist who believes God wrote the quaran to Mohammed and hamas has interpreted it correctly to say the entire world should be compelled to be a Muslim theocracy.
Every war results in civilian deaths, WW2, the civil war etc… Hamas hides behind civilians , in the history of the world there is not a nation which has taken more steps to avoid civilian casualties of its enemies than Israel
Wtf kind of rhetoric is this? There is no objectively right side in this conflict. It’s just evil people doing evil shit and the average person suffering because of it.
He’s a bigot who thinks it’s a religious war.
Yes there is an objectively right side, 1 side may not be perfect but there is 1 side that is evil- the Islamic fascists.
Like 9/11, yes america has made foreign policy errors however to hijack planes and crash them into buildings is evil. Yes they celebrated in Palestine and throughout the Arab world and civilians died hunting down al qaeda but it was appropriate to do.
If you are American you are living on colonized land, you are considered evil by the Islamic fascists, do you think someone is justified to break onto house and stab you, to target you as infidel explicitly. That is not the same as responding to that attack and the evil terrorist is hiding behind civilians (who support him) and them being killed despite taking numerous steps to avoid them.
The Islamic fascists are objectively wrong, they believe that a medieval warlords poetry comes from God and kill anyone that disagree, ISIS did this things in Kurdistan, just killing everyone and taking sex slaves. They are objectively evil and wrong and it is an intellectual and moral weakness if you can’t distinguish this
I don’t think you’ll find many people on lemmy who will agree that the US is objectively right in virtually any conflict. I remember even on the day 9/11 was happening people were saying how this was the chicken coming home to roost. Civilians don’t deserve any of this, but the actions of their country – against their will – started a chain reaction that lead to this terrorist attack.
That’s not to excuse terrorist acts. But they don’t come out of nowhere - they always feed on some legitimate grievance, or else they would have no recruits.
Yeah some people did cheer 9/11 but these are morally weak people.
If Israel killed 2 million gazans tomorrow they could say look at what they did and I don’t think the people who said the 9/11 terrorists had their reason would endorse killing 2 million Muslims.
This is what moral reasoning is, just because 1 side isn’t perfect doesn’t mean that the other side is evil or wrong.
You can see that the Islamic fascists rely obscuring issues, propaganda, yelling slogans in unison.
To parse facts is difficult but it is not difficult to see that islam is a fascist ideaology unwilling to be peaceful and Israel has made numerous steps and concessions to peace.
You could say that ISIS is justified to genocide the kurds for some reason, you can say the Nazis were justified, that Germany was decimated… It doesn’t occur in a vacuum, but then to turn around and be sympathetic to the Nazis who were bombed? Yeah many people are, they see the Nazis as justified and lament their oppression, but they are idiots.
Ah yes, yelling slogans in unison, only Islamists would do that oh wait.
You seem to assume that there are two possible positions: Hamas must be supported in what they do to Israelis, or the Israeli government must be supported in what they do to Palestinians. This dichotomy is bullshit. The Israeli government can theoretically be changed through democracy to put people that want to coexist with Palestinians in power. Palestine could theoretically have an anti-Hamas organization come to power who work towards coexistence.
However, the campaign of terror that Israel has waged against Palestinians for decades makes it hard for them to want coexistence. Conversely, the threat of Hamas feeds Islamophobic sentiment in Israel, allowing wannabe fascists like Bibi to gain power.
Bibi actually fucked up by not preparing for the attack and not seeing it coming in the first place. Israelis are pissed and it’s predicted that Netanyahu will lose power when things quiet down. Unfortunately, this gives the current government the perverse incentive to continually escalate the war for as long as possible while showing strength against Hamas in the hopes that right wing Israelis forgive them for their incompetence.
To change Israelis leadership, foreigners who want peace should encourage Israel to deescalate the war, and one way to do that might be to prevent both sides from getting the weapons needed to prolong the war. We should sanction Hamas and help Israel stop weapons flow into Gaza, but we should also not give Israel any weapons that fuel their attacks with high collateral damage. No artillery, try to end the blockade of essential resources by helping to police imports, and other techniques to keep Israel from widening the war. Tell them that they will not receive support if they encourage clashes with foreign adversaries. Tell them to only defend settlements in the West Bank and not carry out preemptive attacks.
I doubt Biden will do enough to deescalate, but there is a possibility that he will try to avoid a broader war. The US congress will totally give terrible weapons to Israel with bipartisan support, only helping Netanyahu stay in power.
What’s unforgivable about the response from the West is that many, like you, conflate the desire for peace with support for Hamas. It doesn’t matter if you say Hamas are fascists that must be destroyed, you have to believe that killing Palestinians is the only solution. The only way for the IDF’s strategy to destroy Hamas to work, is if they kill all Palestinians in the West Bank. They could kill 10k, 100k, 1 million, or even 2 million Gazans, but the remaining Palestinians will be no less radicalized. Hell, they’ll probably be even more radicalized than before.
The only way to kill Hamas without genocide is to give Gazans a serious way to improve their conditions. Israel should give billions to the most benevolent Palestinian organizations to invest in the country. They could give Palestinians voting rights and equal access to social services, effectively turning what is currently Isreal into a secular, federal state. The only other way that Israelis could get rid of Hamas is to turn Palestine into a maximally authoritarian police state, and in addition to being very expensive, they’ll probably have settlers push Palestinians out over time, resulting in a slower genocide.
The actual dichotomy isn’t Netanyahu or Hamas, it’s financially cheap genocide, or expensive peace, with slow and expensive genocide existing in between. Not all problems are best solved through violence.
I don’t think you know or understand the history of the conflict at all.
As I’ve said in other comments, and these are the simple facts of the conflict- that Israel has always been willing to and wanted to live in peace with Palestinians, that they accepted then 1948 partition, that they didn’t control the WB and Gaza until the 1967 war, have offered the pals states numerous times and they arabs live freely in Israel. OTOH pals have been explicit that there can be no Jewish state on any form, no Jewish presence, and vowed to fight to the death against it. These are the facts. The Jews, who are the natives of the land have made numerous concessions and the arabs who are from other places have not made any concessions from their demands which is absolute Islamic fascism.
Every ‘campaign’ of the Israelis to restrict Palestinians has been the result of massive terror campaigns which the pals have vowed to as long as Israel exists.
Maybe not every response of Israel has been exactly measured but the genesis of the conflict is clear, that the Islamic fascist are not willing to accept a non Muslim presence in any form, and they are the occupiers, Jews are the natives of the land. Everyone knows that Jerusalem, Hebron, nazereth etc… Are all cities built by Jews.
West bank and Gaza are given a ton of aid and if they accepted a state would be living in wealth, living well is not their objective or at least not the objective of the government. They say explicitly they desire death, they they love death more than Jews love life.
You are intellectually weak and have no moral spine
🤮
I’m sorry you can’t view people as anything more than a horde. It must be hard to interact with children from an out group. They may look cute and innocent, but they’re just future enemies!
So sad that the German should be a fascist but espouse it under the cover of Jews through zionism.
I do view people as individuals and some people are individuals and some people just function as hordes. In some places that is greater proportion of people who are individuals as opposed to hordes than in other places.
All abrahamic religions are founded on lies.
First of all Israel is a western democracy and is not government based on Judaism any more than Britain is government based on Christianity.
Second of all there is a reason that Jewish based relations spread around the world, and that is because there is a true element which is consistent with Aristotle and Hinduism , that the nature of world is that there exists a creator being who is detached from all else. Many important things have come from this true conception of the universe, but one of them is not that the entire world should be government by the poetry of a medevil warlord
ALL abrahamic religions are founded on lies. The book of Genesis is part of the Torah and exists solely to indoctrinate prejudice against women. They are all bullshit.
That is not true. For good or bad these are the most ancient myths of humanity,stories used to transmit ideas before writing was invented and written down at the neolithic revolution.
Men and women are of different natures … In truth Adam , eve, and the snake are all one being and exists inside every person. In the story God only speaks to Adam , Adam speaks to eve and eve to the snake as this is how they are connected in the brain/soul
The snake is not specifically evil, but relates to physical needs eg food, sex.
There’s a lot to it.
Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.
It’s possible for more than one thing to be true at the same time.
It’s true that Hamas is a terrorist organization, yes.
However it’s also true that the Israeli government is undertaking actions which are fitting for a genocidal, fascist government. Do you seriously thing that their 24 hour evacuation notice sent to an excess of 1 million people who had/have no power, water, heat, or communications is reasonable?
You throw around genocide as to make it completely meaningless.
Usually when a country goes to war they do not give any warning whatsoever
No one is using that word lightly.
Yeah they are. First of all pals aren’t a race, they are arabs and there are hundreds of millions of arbas.
Secondly the causality in this conflict are in no way ‘genocidal’ even if you were to consider pals a race. They’ve been given warning to flee the fighting, it’s simply a term being used as propaganda, 'the genocide of children '…
Palestinians are Palestinians. They are an ethnicity where a large group shares religion, culture, and language.
And Israel is genocidal. It’s ethnically cleansing a group of people for who they are.
They’re not being killed because of who they are, they are being killed because they launched a war. They are ‘genocidal’ against Jews, it says openly in their charter.
You can look back at history and see Israel has been willing to live in peace with pals, offered numerous states, arabs live freely in Israel, pals have waged war against any Jewish presence in the land, they are genocidal.
Israel is giving notice before they attack to flea, the pals intentionally target civilians. Of course the people attacking civilians are going to lie about everything. It is the most pathetic and disgusting people
The 1 million Gazans under 18 launched a war? Get a grip.
“gen·o·cide [ˈjenəˌsīd] NOUN the deliberate killing or severe mistreatment of a large number of people from a particular national or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.”
Genocide has never been about race. Many of the historic genocides have been commited by people of the same race just another distant group in that race.
So would you say the pals want to genocide Israel?
No. The Palestinians have not shown that they want to genocide the Isreali people.
Hamas does though.
Hamas is the elected gov of gaza, they have broad support, it is true that not everyone supports them and obviously they are coercive
So why doesn’t the world unite against Hamas ?
Uh… I know this is too much for your brain to comprehend, but Arabs (the race) are only people from the Arab peninsula. Palestinians, along with Jordanians and the like, are Levantine, a completely different ethnic group.
One day old account. Definitely not espousing propaganda.
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They’re not trapped, theyre given warning. Egypt traps them on gaza
The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one. Which is it, are they trapped or not?
They can’t go into Israel because they are murderous terrorists. There is no reason they can’t go into Egypt. If they broke into Egypt the egyptians would kill all of them and no one would complain.
🤦♂️I can’t believe you’ve been internally inconsistent twice in a row after it being pointed out.
Let me get this straight: Every, single, person in the Gaza strip is a terrorist, and they are simultaneously not trapped, and if they try to leave they would be killed.
Pro tip: say things back to yourself once before saying them. Just to make sure they’re not dumb.
The cognitive dissonance you have is mind-blowing (this means you think conflicting things to justify your hateful beliefs)
Your either slow or being obtuse.
The pals would like to go to Egypt, Egypt won’t let them in, if pals tried to force their way in Egypt would kill them because they don’t want them. How hard is that to understand ?
Do you have another explanation for why pals aren’t going to Egypt? I remember a couple of weeks ago there was a lie that Israel bombed the rafah crossing but it was made up like everything else. So what’s your answer ?
Would you rather I call it by some fluffy, feel-good term like special operation? Elimination of the enemy? Opening a retaliatory assault on the Gaza strip while running a propaganda campaign aligning Hamas with groups like Isis or the Nazis, and portraying the Palestinian people as wholly supporting Hamas does nothing but provide justification for civilian casualties.
You are correct that a country may not normally provide advance warning of assault, however an unreasonable warning is as good as no warning and again, only serves to justify the deaths of any innocents that weren’t able to evacuate in time.
Israel has one of the best special forces units on earth, total control of what comes in and out of the strip, and the funding of the world’s second largest military, and you seriously believe they need to commit to clicking the delete button on the Gaza strip to remove a militant group from an area smaller than new york?
Several days of warning is more than sufficient, most people have in fact evacuated.
Israel does not control everything as you can see Hamas has thousands of rockets despite Israels efforts.
If pals indiscriminately fire rockets, the fact Israel doesn’t indiscriminately fire rockets is restraint. There are conflicts like this all of the Mideast and the reason they don’t fire rockets into Saudi arabia or syria is because they would kill them by the millions.
Hamas has broad support from pals, but if they don’t then what is your issue in the war to remove them ?
With all honestly, especially with the massacres that have been taking place last night, where Israel cut off all internet and networks, making it impossible for ambulances to operate, it really is Israel creating propaganda against Palestinians, not very different from how Nazi Germnay made up bullshit about Jews, a lot of propaganda not too different from the propaganda being used to justify murdering Palestinian children. Netanyahu is butchering Palestinians in Gaza now under the idea of a “final solution”. Israel’s constant obsession with not covering news from Gaza is no different from Nazi Germany hiding their atrocities from the public. Palestinians are considered “outsiders”, just like the Jews in Nazi Germany. There are apartheid areas that Palestinians can’t enter even though the territory was supposed to be under Palestinian rule. Palestinians are losing their jobs, losing their homes, their shops, not much different. Being demonized, deported, ignored, tortured, all of these are things Palestinian victims and holocaust victims have together.
Ambulances cant operate without the internet ? Ok. It’s a war, there will be suffering. Hamas could release the hostages and stop firing rockets…
Pals don’t have freedom because they are at constant war. They had every opportunity for a state and they chose war. Pal territory was controlled by Jordan and Egypt until 1966 and there was war
Pals are given the opportunity to flea a war zone, it is nothing like the Holocaust. This isn’t even like black September, the Syrian civil war or any other Arab conflict where the Muslims are much more severe let alone the Holocaust. Even if Israel killed literally millions of Palestinians it would not be like the Holocaust , the pals are devoted to fighting the jews, the Jews were not a threat to Germany in any way.
Ambulances have been unable to operate without internet or phone lines or networks of any kind.
Hamas agreed already to the UNGA resolution to have a ceasefire and release all hostages. Israel didn’t agree to the resolution
“OK it’s a war” was never an excuse for the holocaust and neither is it an excuse today.
We killed many Germans civilians in WW2, that is what happens in a war.
Ambulances cant operate without the internet ? Ok. It’s a war, there will be suffering. Hamas could release the hostages and stop firing rockets…
Pals don’t have freedom because they are at constant war. They had every opportunity for a state and they chose war. Pal territory was controlled by Jordan and Egypt until 1966 and there was war
Pals are given the opportunity to flea a war zone, it is nothing like the Holocaust. This isn’t even like black September, the Syrian civil war or any other Arab conflict where the Muslims are much more severe let alone the Holocaust. Even if Israel killed literally millions of Palestinians it would not be like the Holocaust , the pals are devoted to fighting the jews, the Jews were not a threat to Germany in any way.
Watch Journey to Apartheid to understand this conflict.
I don’t need your propaganda.
Fact is Muslims live freely as equal citizens in Israel and have no desire to live under Palestinian authority.
Jews cannot live freely in a Muslim country and have had laws discriminating against Jews for hundreds of years. Judaism predates islam not only in Israel but in Iran, Iraq,syria, Egypt, Morocco and in all these places there are and have always been discriminatory laws against Jews.
Jewish people are the natives of the land, the aqsa mosque is built on the Jewish temple, the premise of Islam is there can be no Jewish state or Jewish freedom anywhere and not in the land to which they are native, it is all Muslim dictatorships from Morocco to Pakistan, they are fascist
Martin Luther King Jr.
Palestinian Moslems and Christians and Jews are very much natives of the land. It’s the same fucking people, a number of which changed religion in the 2500 years since the Diaspora started.
Denying that is the #1 lie of Israeli fascists. If you wanna be a Zionist go back to Herzl and actually strive towards living in harmony with your brothers and sisters.
There are druze , circassions, Muslim immigrants who came hundreds of years ago,.some came when the Jews came, there are many different groups but everyone knows that Jews are native to the land
I mean… yes and no? Filipinos aren’t native to Saudi Arabia just because they happen to be Muslim.
The Jews got ethnically cleansed out of the area ballpark 500BC when Babylonians conquered it, then when Persians conquered it less than 100 years later they were allowed to return. Islam and Christianity didn’t exist at that time. Ashkenazi in particular stem from a Jewish community in Rome, ca. 200BC, that is they’re part of the diaspora which didn’t return immediately.
Now it’s over 2000 years later and while I wouldn’t want to deny anyone the right to move to a place of religious and cultural importance to their ethnicity, but bloody behave yourselves while doing it. The Palestinians aren’t the Babylonians, they’re the descendants of people who returned early to those lands. And that’s actually what Herzl and the early Zionists did, but then nationalistic chauvinists came along, including people who aligned with fucking Nazis like the Stern Gang, and everything went, predictably, to shit. From that general fascist direction also things like forced sterilisation of black Jews in Israel.
Deal with those people, for starters, don’t have Ben-Gvir as minister for national security, accept that they’re the same shit as Hamas and Nazis just with a different coat of paint and act accordingly. Once the Israeli civil society gets around to do that a lot of people would be way more receptive to the idea of “but but Israel is the good guy here”. Once you stop making excuses for fascists and fascist rhetoric and myths. I know the average Israeli isn’t a fascist, they’re centre-left, but boy is there a blind spot when it comes to “security” rhetoric.
Arabs are native to Saudi arabia, Islam is an Arab religion but not all Muslims are arabs. It’s like the difference between being Italian and Catholic. Judaism is an ethno religion, they don’t convert and they don’t force people to convert as Muslims do.
Some pals may be defended from Jews but many groups traveled through the region over the years and there was never a cohesive Palestinian identity. Under Muslim rule there were laws against non Muslims immigrating. Under British rule Jews were allowed but so were Muslims and many Muslims immigrated at this time as Jews developed the land.
The arabs sided with the Nazis in the war and sought to restrict Jewish immigration. The British mandate of Palestine was all of current day Israel and Jordan. The Balfour declaration divided Palestine into Jordan and Israel, with Jews only allowed in Israel and Muslims allowed every where. Jordan was given to the 'heshemite ’ family who is not native, the entire country was given as a kingdom to a single family not from the region… in 1948 Palestine was further partitioned into areas where Jews were allowed and where they were not with a small Jewish state of mostly desert and swamp in Palestine, the Jews accepted and the arabs went to war. Before that point there was no Arab displacement or intention to but after the war many arabs were pushed out. Look up the 1948 partition. So at that point the Jews who were refugees from Europe were able to immigrate to Israel.
The arabs launched wars against the existence of Israel in 1955, 1968, 1973 , while Jordan controlled the west bank they never thought of making it a Palestinian state… When Israel controlled it they offered the pals states numerous times but from the beginning the pals refused because they will not recognize a Jewish state of any form as they have from the beginning, as it’s part of their fascist religion
I don’t see why there can’t be a Jewish state, and furthermore why Jews can’t live freely in the west bank, in Jordan, and even in Iraq , of Muslims can live freely in Israel why it the reverse ? Even under the occupation pals in the west bank have a better quality of life than most Arab countries and Gaza was way better off before Hamas. Israel has made rons of concessions to peace and that was their mistake, because they were naive leftists who believed that if they make steps towards peace the pals will reciprocate. What happened was they gave pals an inch , the pals used everything for terrorism, Israel clamped down and now the Islamic fascist regime uses thata as a pretext for terrorism.
No. The mistake was to first not nib groups like the Stern Gang in the bud, and then later on let that kind of thinking fester. You’re talking about wars against Israel’s existence but don’t mention that there were Jews in mandate Palestine which organised massacres against Arabs.
Are you aware of the term “Vergangenheitsbewältigung”? Israel has to face that aspect of its past. Come to terms with it. Stop casting themselves as only always the victim and ever only the victim and oh are all others always so mean, but instead accept, as history and as responsibility, that the state was funded in part on things like this:
Yep that’s Stern Gang. Remember that, as well as that they tried to ally with the Nazis, the next time you try to cast Palestinians as Nazis, or, worse, try to make them responsible for the Holocaust.
Jews faces discrimination in every Arab country. When the ottomans controlled Palestine there were laws against Jewish immigration, and of course not Muslim immigration. Yes Islam has been fascist for many centuries. Jews were restricted from immigrating and then when they were able to they attacked and responded to various degrees. It’s ridiculous to think that it’s not Muslims who instigated the attacks… Do you think small numbers of Jews immigrated and immediately attacked Muslims ?
So you think the Celts should kill all French and Germans, right? I mean they are native to the land, their ancestors were there before the Romans and the Germanic tribes
Jews are the natives of the land. So if you could imagine the British not allowing celts in England. Or white people not allowing native Americans in the US.
There are native people to the land who are Jewish. That does not mean that all Jews globally are native to Palestine or that only Jews are native to the land.
There are still some Celts in continental Europe (mostly in Brittany). So thus the Irish, Scottish, Cornish, Welsh, Manx, and such are all totally justified in settling and displacing everywhere their ancestors have ever lived, right?
Jews originated in Israel, this is a fact. Jews have always been willing to live with arabs in Israel. It is the arbasnwho have launched war against any Jews in the land, the land to which they are native.
It would be like all the non Irish groups in Ireland saying that the Irish can’t live their etc…