I’m ok with timezones, but the guy who invented daylight savings time I’d slap to all the way to the sun
From a development perspective it certainly sounds easier to have one global timezone with DST than a bunch of smaller ones without it. Would that make sense in reality? Probably not but I definitely think timezones take more work to compensate for properly.
What matters is consistency and our time system has tons of crazy inconsistent shit in our. Everyone knows about leap years, but do you know about leap seconds? Imagine trying to write a function to convert unix time to a current date and suddenly all your times are a second off.
Just look at this insane bullshit nonsense. The added complexity of time zones and daylight saving time is nothing compared to simply supporting our time system.
We need to synchronize all computer times with that one clock that can stay accurate to within 1 second every 40 billion years.
We do? With NTP
I’m referring to this one, the most bleeding edge of accuracy. I don’t think NIST would have implemented this particular clock (yet).
Incredible list, the scale.
The software will never run on a space ship that is orbiting a black hole.
hmm
A little aspirational?
Not really. Timezones, at their core (so without DST or any other special rules), are just a constant offset that you can very easily translate back and forth between, that’s trivial as long as you remember to do it. Having lots of them doesn’t really make anything harder, as long as you can look them up somewhere. DST, leap seconds, etc., make shit complicated, because they bend, break, or overlap a single timeline to the point where suddenly you have points in time that happen twice, or that never happen, or where time runs faster or slower for a bit. That is incredibly hard to deal with consistently, much more so that just switching a simple offset you’re operating within.
Switching sucks but DST is better than Standard Time.
Which part of the year is DST and which part is Standard Time?
I know, but it seems like half the people that say they prefer DST have it backwards.
It’s easy, the good part is DST (which is what we’re currently in - Spring through Fall in the northern hemisphere).
It’s only good from spring to fall. Come winter and it’s a permanent depression.
Standard Time during that period is what’s depressing.
yeah it’s literally ass-backwards. how can anyone support DST as it stands is beyond me
With standard time you get some light in the morning. With DST you get no light at all. Also there’s nothing worse than waking up in the darkness.
Sure there is… Coming home from work in the darkness is way worse than waking up in it.
Strong disagree, under DST I get to experience some sunlight in then evenings. Under Standard time I get to watch the sun come up through the window and set through the window.
just move somewhere better. don’t mess up my timezone just because your weather always sucks!
I don’t know what you mean by evening, but it’s already dark at 16:00 during winter. You only get some light in the morning. DST means no more light in the morning and no more light in the evening. Complete depression. DST should not exist.
i still dont even understand what DST even is, as far as i care because i don’t is that DST just means we change the time, because god forbid the time be a little funky.
DST is shifting the sunlight later in the day during the summer.
too bad there isn’t like a standard convention that establishes when something would take effect, how it would take effect, and at what interval.
No, daylight savings time is definitely what we’re going to call it.
DST vsm Standard time literally doesn’t matter. It’s the switching between the two that kills people.
The real problem is that across the globe there is like 50 different implementations of it. Some places have a fucking half hour, or some goofy shit. Really fun handling time zones with that sprinkled on top.
Love me some early evening daylight though. Nice warm but not hot cruise/drive with the windows and the top down on the car.
I love DST! I just think ever switching out of it is where the mistake lies
DST during winter = permanent depression.
You are aware that the actual amount of daylight doesn’t change when we move the clocks right?
It really comes down to when you’d rather have more daylight, morning or evening.
Evening
Agreed. That’s why DST is best.
Except that it doesn’t. Take a look at daylight data for 20 Dec here https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london
Daylight: 08:03 - 15:53
That’s ST obv. Now let’s convert it to DST, that will be 9:03 - 16:53. Let’s say you work a standard 9-5 job. Well, 9:03 is after you start working and 16:53 is before you finish. Thus you get ZERO daylight during the day in DST. You get almost an hour in the morning with ST.
Now let’s move further away from equator https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/latvia/riga
Daylight: 08:59 - 15:43
Well, DST is a perma fucking depression now as you’re robbed from the very few minutes you had before.
How about further North https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/finland/helsinki
Daylight: 09:23 - 15:12
No wonder Finland has such high suicide rates during winter…
P.S. It is also worth noting that daylight grows the closer you get to the equator and it grows in the morning, not in the evening. You can see from the examples above that their evening difference is smaller than the morning one. There’s just no point having DST.
I’m missing your point. Do you think that moving the clocks is having an effect on the tilt of the earth? Or are you just trying to explain to me how daylength and latitude are related?
I know quite well how dark it gets in the north. I live in the north. Luckily, the sun still rises and sets at very predictable intervals. If I want to enjoy sunlight, I simply need to be awake at some point that coincides with when the sun is up.
You are also aware that not everyone works the exact same hours, right? And windows exist?
Use a different example to make the opposite point: I’d like the sun to be out for at least an hour after I get home from my “9-5”, so if the sun sets at 1700 I’m standard time, I am depressed. But in DST, I get to spend an hour in my garden.
See? The debate is stupid. Do you want more daylight in the morning or afternoon. That’s the only question. The amount of daylight is not affected by clocks.
Wut? If it’s DST during winter, you don’t have any light to enjoy after work. You can only enjoy light in the morning with ST. All the explanation is above, with facts.
Isn’t that Benjamin Franklin or did West Wing lie to me?
IIRC daylight savings was created way back when electricity really didn’t exist so it allowed the farmers more daylight to harvest their crops.
Now with that said there is more technology in today’s farming equipment so DST shouldn’t really exist anymore.
It’s not about the crops, farmers work by the sun, not by the clock.
It was able conserving candles and oil, for lighting rooms.
So, this is wrong on so many levels. First of all, DST had nothing to do with farmers, it was to save energy usage in the summer as people were doing more things when the evenings were warmer.
IIRC daylight savings was created way back when electricity really didn’t exist so it allowed the farmers more daylight to harvest their crops.
DST does not increase the amount of daylight on any specific day of the year, it just shifts it later in the day so that people in 8-5 jobs can do more things after work. Farmers don’t work 8-5, they work as needed so if the crops need harvesting they will get harvested based on the weather.
Now with that said there is more technology in today’s farming equipment so DST shouldn’t really exist anymore.
Nowadays farmers have lots of lights and can harvest after the sun goes down, but that has nothing to do with why DST shouldn’t exist. DST shouldn’t exist because it doesn’t save energy due to any populated place having their lights on all night and the actual changing of time leading to negative outcomes like deaths from accidents with no benefits.
Sure, the sun will come up earlier and set later in the summer if we get rid of DST, but the only reason for the time change in the first place was the standard working hours being longer after noon than before.
and set earlier in the summer*
I hate it. I fucking hate it. With every fiber of my being. I spend every winter counting the days until the sun stops setting before I stop working. Our entire lives are scheduled so we are inside under neon light from 9-6, why are we trying to maximize how much of that is during daytime?
On the day that we go back to permanent ST I will turn to hard drugs to make up for the dopamine deficiency. No joke very few things in my life fill me with more dread than having to suffer early evenings for the rest of my life.
Maybe, and hear me out, the problem is that 9 to 6 is the problem, since 2/3 of that time is after noon. Instead of changing reality to appease business, business, work hours could be changed to 8 to 4 with four before and four after which is both more light in the evening than DST and a shorter workday because people are more productive than they ever have been.
But I guess you would rather let business practices determine when noon is for everyone instead of the sun.
Business hours is no more or less of a social construct than DST or the 24 hour clock.
The only difference is that we have a shot at making everyone agree on a timezone shift or permanent DST, but absolutely NO SHOT at getting every business to switch to an 8-4 schedule. None. It’d be a nice sentiment. But it’s not happening, and I don’t care what the number says on the clock when I leave work as long as it’s sunny outside.
Why is it so important that the sun reaches its zenith at noon anyway? Do you often get confused while looking at your antique sundial?
First of all, noon refers to when the sun is at the highest point in the sky so being an hour off is confusing.
Being able to look at the general position of the sun and being able to estimate time is pretty handy.
Being able to estimate the length of day because the time between sunrise and sunset being approximately the same is handy.
Not changing the time of day twice a year would be fucking fantastic.
Some places already stick with standard time all year round.
The US tried year round DST in the 70s and it was widely rejected within a year because DST during the winter is fucking awful.
Plus, most jobs don’t mind people coming in and leaving early, which is a far more common shift adjustment than coming in and staying late.
Year round standard time is the real solution.
My understanding is DST did still save appreciable energy until we replaced incandescent lights with fluorescent and leds. Longer daylight in the evening when people are awake and less in the early morning when people are asleep means lights aren’t being used as much. The average light bulb used to consume 60 watts or more and also let off significant undesirable heat, so with a house full of lights DST really did cut back energy usage. Now though with led lights low consumption and virtually no heat, it’s not nearly as significant.
And you’d think *if anything farmers would want more sunlight in the morning when it’s cooler.
Edited because people want to take this the wrong way. As in this another reason that DST and farmers makes no sense.
Farmers don’t care about clocks unless they are scheduling a time to meet and using the clock for clarity.
The sun comes up when it comes up and that is what matters. Farmers don’t care about the clock for what they consider morning, because morning is before the sun is highest in the aky. They are already getting up a few minutes earlier or later depending on whether the days are getting longer or shorter.
DST has nothing to do with farmers.
I think you misread my comment. It’s along the lines of if anything they would prefer the morning.
This is like saying dogs would want better stock options when stock options don’t matter to dogs.
This is besides what I was saying, which was again “if anything” and adding another reason why farmers and DST makes no sense. But dude people live in the world. Farmers are not 1000% in their own bubble. They need to go out to stores and get supplies and interact with the world and the supply chain. You are now taking lack of an office schedule or something to a ludicrous degree with your analogy. I wasn’t even disagreeing with your old points, I was saying “if anything” and adding another reason, but you want to go off on seemingly everyone. Perhaps you’re confusing me with the other guy, but whatever. Cheers.
Actually DST was a war world one thing to save energy. To not need lighting in the factory.
Look it up you’re both wrong.
It actually was only active during WWI and WW2 until late 60s or early 70s (oil crunch may have brought it back.)
Originally being started for WWI and WWII doesn’t contradict my post which talks about the current reasons given to keep it and that it is not saving energy now.
Oof just 90%
“Midwestsocial”
Yup that explains the lack of reading comprehension…
Good day
Why does my location impact your reading comprehension?
Smh my head
That’s a misconception. Farmers lobbied heavily against DST. Their work does not abide by the clock; they milk when cows need milking, and they harvest when there’s enough light, no matter what some clock says.
In Europe, DST as we know it now was first introduced by Germany during WW1 to preserve coal, then abandoned after the war, and widely adopted again in the 70s. In the US it was established federally in the 60s.
This is all glossing over a lot of regional differences and older history. But yeah, US farmers were very much against the idea.
I blame Big Ice Cream™.
Those ice cream trucks get an additional hour of daylight to hawk their goods before the children are recalled back inside for supper.
That is literally the opposite of true.
It was some worker who wanted more time after work to catch butterflys.
Ok so there are 24 time zones. Before that every town had their own time based on the sun. We basically went from infinity time zones down to 24. This is in fact simpler.
(There are some half hour time zones too, (India, Newfoundland) so at least 26.)
There are a few time zones that are 45 minutes off, like Nepal Standard Time which is UTC+5:45, some places in Western Australia and South Australia use UTC+08:45 and the Chatham Islands are at UTC+12:45 or UTC+13:45 in summer.
DST means you also have things like CST vs CET and given some places start DST earlier or later than others and some ignore it all together, we probably have at least 50 time zones.
Always fun trying to schedule international regular meetings when suddenly there’s a week when half the people’s times changed and the other half’s times haven’t yet, so you try to figure out which time would exclude the fewest essential people.
Absolute madness. smh my head
there are 24 time zones
Cunningham’s law says that this will generate some discussion in the replies!
No, there is entire continuum of time zones.
Soon we’re going to have a new timezone for the moon. Yay, I guess?
Surely they will just use utc?
Can’t be that simple due to time dilation effect. Time moves at a different rate in moon, about
1s58.7 μs difference per day.https://www.reuters.com/science/white-house-directs-nasa-create-time-standard-moon-2024-04-02/
That article says 58.7 microseconds per (Earth) day. Not 1s.
Shit you’re right, I misremembered it.
Appreciate you correcting your post, just one more needed.
ms = milliseconds
us = microseconds
Easier to just round up lol
not a programmer myself, but actually fuck you, UTC was the correct choice, anything that isn’t UTC is a wrong choice, and i will literally fight to my death over this.
Timezones are dumb and stupid, and you cannot convince me otherwise, so far the single best argument i’ve heard is “well actually, the hands on a clock and the numbers themselves roughly represent the cycle of the sun in the sky during the day.” Which is pretty good, until you realize that clocks tend to be circles, and you can often just rotate them. And suddenly, the numbers now match up perfectly. But i’ve also never once heard of someone caring about that specific feature, so uh. Good riddance frankly.
Timezones kind of made sense back in the day, when the sun was the only realistic timing system, and pre internet, when people stayed where they were. But now that people don’t do that, and the internet tends to do this thing where it exists. I refuse to believe it makes more sense to have timezones than not.
“Hmmm yes please, i would like to order the time here, but halfway across the globe please” - statements dreamed up by the utterly insane.
ok that concludes my rant. Now i’m going to go set FUCKING DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME on my clock because FOR SOME REASON THE TIME JUST CHANGES HALFWAY THROUGH THE YEAR FUCK YOU.
My man.
The fact that i even have to think about timezones at all is hilarious to me. Jet lag? UTC would fix that, the time ANYWHERE you are is the time you are normally at, it’s just the day/night cycle that’s bunk. So now instead of being confused as to why things are pretty normal, but you feel utterly shit. You just feel very confused, and probably still tired, but it’s very obvious why.
This shit sends me into schizophrenic ramblings i swear to god PLEASE stop using timezones.
Don’t think your username checks out, seems like time is killing you
No. Thats why im killing IT. Because it fucking sucks, and i hate it, and it should die.
I know I’m probably not changing your mind on this but interested in how you would want the system to be? Regarding your point about being able to rotate the clock so it matches the local solar cycle, suppose we’re in a place where we have 13, at the top of the clock, because that’s when midnight is where we are.
And let’s say it’s Wednesday 3rd April today. What happens when the clock reaches 13? After 1 second elapses, does your local clock go from Wednesday 3rd April 12:59:59 to…
a) Wednesday 3rd April 13:00:00 b) Thursday 4th April 13:00:00
If a) then you have the problem that the date change is now in the middle of the day, and most of the time you can’t even say “what day is it today”. (If 13:00 is midnight, then 00:00, when the date would roll over, would be just before noon.) You have to say today is "Wednesday/Thursday, or “3rd/4th April” because when you wake up it’s Wednesday, but after lunch it becomes Thursday.
If b) then you have the problem where it may be Thursday 4th April 13:00:00 where you live, but actually it’s not midnight yet somewhere else and so simultaneously it’s Wednesday 3rd April 13:00:00 there. And in fact every location has their own time at which the date rolls over and it’s not even possible to interpret a timestamp unless you have a table that tells you when midnight is for each location.
Maybe you feel that one or both of these are not really big enough of a problem, or maybe you can think of some other way of dealing with this that I haven’t thought of. And yeah, both of these issues sort of happen already with timezones – the issue in a) happens if you stay up past midnight, but at least it always happens at midnight at not when most people are awake and doing their business. The issue in b) sort of happens already since it can be Wednesday in one place and Thursday in another, but at least the timestamp would always indicate how many hours past the date rollover it is.
timezones IMO, shouldn’t exist. The sun cycle is disconnected from actual physical date and time cycle. Just pick a timezone, UTC, or whatever the fuck, unix time, i don’t care, DST or not, i don’t care, and stick with it.
Nothing, the next day is 00:00 You’re adjusting it to match the rising cycle of the sun, not to match the day transition point which is entirely arbitrary, that would just be different. I mean, take a normal clock, flip it upside down. Does it run any differently? Nope. It’s the same, it’s just upside down now.
The date time roll over would be a little weird, but then again we literally already have it. It’s just not synced with the sun cycle. Ask anybody who rolls a late night schedule what they think about midnight. I mean you literally can say what day it is. The date is explicit. The date changes at night, can you say what night it is at night? It literally doesn’t matter.
The date cycling over is universal across every zone, doesn’t change from one place to another. It’s the cycle of the sun that changes. That’s the easy part to adapt to, we’ve been doing it since the beginning of humanity.
then you have the problem where it may be Thursday 4th April 13:00:00 where you live, but actually it’s not midnight yet somewhere else and so simultaneously it’s Wednesday 3rd April 13:00:00 there.
Yeah, we already have that, it’s called timezones. The day night cycle is independent from date time. To TL;DR that entire section, midnight literally just isn’t a thing in that scenario. It’s the date rollover point now.
Like frankly, someone who lives in the midwest, with DST, and long days in the summer, and shorter days in the winter. None of this is a problem. We’ve been collectively doing this async sun cycle/date time thing for centuries. The sun here sets about 3-4 hours later in the summer, in the winter it’s about much earlier comparatively. We adjust our clocks to this twice a year, every year, for every decade, for every century. Our bodies adapt to it. Nothing explodes. (even though arguably it still sucks.)
The problem you list there specifically i think is mostly confusion about the concept of midnight not being midnight anymore, midnight is just called that because it’s the middle of the night, we just happened to choose that as the point where the day rolls over. Sun rise and sun set happen at specific times, weather apps will tell you about this. Nobody seems to complain about those being incredibly variable.
The date rollover is the same in every place in the world. You local day/night cycle is what is disconnected. I could see that potentially being annoying, but then again, we already have concepts of morning, noon, afternoon, evening, etc… I’m genuinely not sure how much this would matter in day to day life. You wake up, it’s one day. You wake up the next day, it’s the next day. You just happen to be awake at the point that it happens. I mean hell it probably wouldn’t even bother most people. Lets say day rollover is noon in 24 hour time somewhere. You tell someone to show up 15:00 on the 8th, which is an impossible date, you just automatically go ok that’s “today” everything before 12 in that scenario is the 7th, everything after is the 8th. 15:00 on the 7th literally isn’t a time that can exist. It’s automatically the 8th. and the advantage here, is that the date rollover point, is the same EVERYWHERE. It literally does not matter where you are on earth.
12 is the rollover point in finland, it’s the rollover point in siberia, it’s the same in china, africa, america, south america, etc… The ONLY thing that has changed is the offset of the day/night cycle in relation to the date/time cycle.
I’m quite confused as to how you’re actually proposing the time should work. I assume that when we talk about abolishing timezones, we mean that everyone switches to a single standard timezone (and that it still goes from 00:00 - 23:59). Are you saying that you would like:
a) The date-rollover point to happen at local solar midnight (i.e. 12 hours past when the sun is highest in the sky in your location, or roughly that), regardless of what the time actually is
b) The date-rollover point to happen at 00:00 standard time, but most people still wake up and go to sleep roughly around when the sun rises and sets
c) The date-rollover point to happen at 00:00 standard time, but most people wake up at roughly 07:00 (for the sake of argument, it could just be any standard time) and go to sleep roughly 22:00, regardless of where the sun is at those times
d) Some other scenario that I didn’t think of?Maybe I suck at reading comprehension but I can’t tell which system you’re advocating for. I’m also confused when you give the example “15:00 on the 7th literally isn’t a time that can exist”, because however your system works, surely if 15:00 on the 8th is a time that you can refer to, then 15:00 on the 7th is just the time 24 hours before that? (I’m actually just very confused by your scenario. Are you referring to noon as the local solar noon, i.e. when the sun is highest in the sky, or are you referring to when the clock reads 12:00? In both cases I can’t figure out a way to make “15:00 on the 7th” impossible.)
Also I don’t think that the sunrise/sunset times being different throughout the year or that DST exists are indications that the solar cycle is independent of the date. Even if the sunrise/sunset happens at different times of the year, timezones are clearly meant to roughly center the waking day either side of 12:00 on the clock around the solar noon. DST exists to make sure that people get more sun during the afternoon when people are more active, so that both contribute to that the date-rollover point happens when it’s dark out and people are less active.
I’m quite confused as to how you’re actually proposing the time should work. I assume that when we talk about abolishing timezones, we mean that everyone switches to a single standard timezone (and that it still goes from 00:00 - 23:59). Are you saying that you would like:
simplest possible solution.
to give an example, let’s say we keep midnight as the date rollover. 00:00 of every day would be the rollover point. The date would change at that point, globally. No matter where you are on the world, the time, and date, is exactly the same. That never changes.
Locally, you would account for this by using offsets, i refer to them as timeoffsets, rather than timezones, or time offset mapping, for completion, which gives you a map to your “local solar time equivalent” Most anything you would need to do would be governed by local solar time, or it’s related offset. Work for instance, that’s how it already works, nothing would be different there, just the funny number that the clock shows you would change. This is literally just our current timezone system, but inverted.
As for the example i used, probably not a good one. That was 24 hour time with noon as the roll over point, just for demonstration. So the first twelve hours are one day, the latter half are the second. Given how twenty four hour time works. The first 12 hours of the day wouldn’t be possible on the day after. Essentially, a good way to think about it, would be that it’s like even and odd numbers. You can tell them apart, just by the very existence of them. 15:00 would not be a possible time for the 7th in that example, unless you went back in time. That was just an example of a slip of the tongue type thing. If you were doing anything more serious, you would be planning it better anyway. Noon in that example, local solar noon or not, doesn’t matter, as that’s arbitrary. The point was just a hypothetical.
Though frankly, i think keeping 00:00 as the roll over makes sense, it’s very explicit. Even if it’s midday. That’s a very explicit time change. DST makes the solar cycle aggressively independent of time throughout the year, in each half of the year, so to some extent, it does with date. Like here in the midwest for example, the summer sunset and winter sunset vary by about 4 hours. Which is a thing that changes twice a year, once a year in the one direction. But twice a year for all intents and purposes. Everybody lives with it perfectly fine. I see no reason that 19:00 being the local solar noon would change anything drastically.
My main point there is that we already wake/sleep at different cycles of the day. On the regular, depending on DST, and season. That doesn’t make a huge difference to day to day life. Local solar noon as a concept being noon (more explicitly, 12:00) every day is an entirely arbitrary concept. It’s kind of cute and all, but like i said, if you really care about representation for it, you can just rotate your clock. Noon to me just marks the midday point, and the point where the sun is highest in the sky. I don’t care about the actual time itself. That means nothing to me.
Oh and while we’re at it, standardizing 24hr time would be a good move. 12 hr time is dumb.
Thank you! Drives me up the wall that when people suggest this and they haven’t thought it through, and that it might make other things worse.
I’d say for everyday usability, what we have is way better. Sure, you deal with timezones, but at least once you know what time it is there you have a good sense of what part of the day they are in.
Currently you look up the timezone, maybe do some maths (but let’s be real, you just search and get given the time) and then you immediately have a good sense of what the time is there, oh cool it’s 7AM.
If we all had the same timezone: you look it up, and then you HAVE to do maths. Why? Oh their midnight is 8, and it’s 15 now, so 7 hours after midnight.
Your mind immediately has gone to oh it’s 7AM, but NO, in this new reality, it’s 15:00 everywhere and where you live midnight is 14:00, so that means where you live it would be like your 21:00.
No matter what time you pick to anchor what time of day that place is, the problem persists. And now you just have replaced the problem of looking up timezones, with looking up when the sun is at some point, and then needing to convert that to get a sense of what time it is there according to the sun.
This would be shit, when you get to a new country when travelling you have to relearn what the numbers “feel” like.
Let’s just keep what we have, this is a solved problem.
Currently you look up the timezone, maybe do some maths (but let’s be real, you just search and get given the time) and then you immediately have a good sense of what the time is there, oh cool it’s 7AM.
If we all had the same timezone: you look it up, and then you HAVE to do maths. Why? Oh their midnight is 8, and it’s 15 now, so 7 hours after midnight.
it’s the exact same amount of math in either scenario, arguably even less. Let’s say you’re setting up the time for a meeting with someone across the globe over zoom or something for instance. How does it go? Well you ask them what they’re schedule is like, and you already know what your schedule is like. And both of them use the same timezone instance, because there is only one. So you do no math other than shifting it directly forward and back, the associated amount of time. Perfectly simple. You could also google it ig, but that’s going to the exact same, minus the abstraction that you would otherwise have to do with timezones.
If we all had the same timezone: you look it up, and then you HAVE to do maths. Why? Oh their midnight is 8, and it’s 15 now, so 7 hours after midnight.
This is called a timezone. “Midnight” is the same time everywhere, unless you’re talking about the literal mid night. In which case, yeah that changes, but i’d question why you would need to know that. It’s not like you don’t already know that. Google has already told you. Assuming we’re talking about the date/time midnight, that’s the same time, in every place of the world. Doesn’t matter, midnight here (assuming the 00:00 standard is continued for some reason) is midnight in fucking norway or, sweden, or bulgaria, or your moms house. Doesn’t matter.
No matter what time you pick to anchor what time of day that place is, the problem persists. And now you just have replaced the problem of looking up timezones, with looking up when the sun is at some point, and then needing to convert that to get a sense of what time it is there according to the sun.
See this is where you go wrong, i’m saying timezones SHOULDN’T exist, and then you immediately propose a system that is also just a timezone, they shouldn’t exist PERIOD. There is not link between the solar cycle, and date/time, other than the fact that they exist in a parallel fashion. There is no anchor to what “midnight” is, midnight is just the middle of the night, that might be 2 am, that might be 5 pm, that might be 14:00 who knows. Who cares, it doesn’t matter.
And let’s assume that timezones are nice, because you get up for work at 6am, and they get up for work at 6am, and you both stop at the same time. Sure timezones are nice in that one specific instance because it’s a direct translation, you know what else is a direct translation though? Not having timezones. You could just as easily convert “timezones” into “solar cycle maps” Literally the same thing, they explain the same exact thing, they use the same exact amount of effort.
It’s literally only LESS confusing now.
Your mind immediately has gone to oh it’s 7AM, but NO, in this new reality, it’s 15:00 everywhere and where you live midnight is 14:00, so that means where you live it would be like your 21:00.
There is no 21:00 your time. it’s 14:00 your time. 14:00 is your midnight in that instance, because that’s the time where the middle of the night occurs for you. 15:00 for you is one hour after you midnight, and 15:00. It’s not magically 22:00 now, or 1:00 now. That’s not how that works.
I suppose you could be arguing that you are so entrenched into this particular method of counting, that the numbers the funny paper disc tells you is actually how you control your sleep cycle, but i would much rather argue, uh no. The sun does. Why? Science.
quick edit:
This would be shit, when you get to a new country when travelling you have to relearn what the numbers “feel” like.
Also, news flash, we already have this issue, it’s literally called jet lag. This is a normal occurrence. And also, literally anybody who lives in somewhere that DST exist, does this TWICE A YEAR.
Timezones are dumb and stupid, and you cannot convince me otherwise, so far the single best argument i’ve heard is “well actually, the hands on a clock and the numbers themselves roughly represent the cycle of the sun in the sky during the day.” Which is pretty good, until you realize that clocks tend to be circles, and you can often just rotate them. And suddenly, the numbers now match up perfectly. But i’ve also never once heard of someone caring about that specific feature, so uh. Good riddance frankly.
This is an interesting thought:
If we had UTC before we decided on a lot of modern standards - by whatever means we got it - I wonder whether it would have just evolved that Celts are used to the sun rising at 4-10 on the clock, but an Ainu is entirely used to the sun rising at 13-19.
if we knew that people would be universally connected across the world, independent from the solar cycle. Than yes, absolutely this would have been considered.
We didn’t know that then, we do know that now, and we also know that when gas pumps in finland experience a leap year, they stop working. It’s literally Y2K but completely random, and entirely jumpscare based. You have no warning.
I mean i live in the midwest, in the summer i’m used to the sun setting at like 10pm. In the winter it sets at like 5-6pm.
The guy that invented time zones was solving a problem where each little town had their own time standard. I don’t think that was sustainable.
I used to feel this way. Over the course of building out 2 calendar systems in my career (so far) and having to learn the intricacies of date and time-related data types and how they interact with time zones, I don’t have much disdain for time zones. I’d suggest for anyone who feels the same way as this meme read So You Want To Abolish Time Zones.
Also, programmers tend to get frustrated with time zones when they run into bugs around time zone conversion. This is almost always due to the code being written in a way that disregards the existence of times zones until it’s needed and then tacks on the time zone handling as an afterthought.
If any code that deals with time takes the full complexities of time zones into account from the get-go (which isn’t that hard to do), then it’s pretty straightforward to manage.
This did little to convince me that timezones are an unnecessary construct. Pretty much every point made was done from the perspective of someone who had already decided their opinion rather than objectively weighing the pros and cons.
I agree. It’s written like “ugh I’m used to timezones, now what?”.
Yeah, the article is written like it’s parodying those who want to abolish timezones, but I’d be interested in specifically what you found unconvincing? I read the main point as being that time zones are an arbitrary social convention but that that arbitrary social conventions are pretty useful for humans.
Like one thing that the article does is repeatedly asking the question “but what time is it in Melbourne?” which I guess sounds pretty silly if you think timezones are unnecessary, since the question would be meaningless if timezones were abolished, and people in different parts of the world would already have centered their day around their respective parts of the clock and you would just look up what the times for everything are in another place. But I think the author was kind of already discarding that idea, because it’s just equivalent to timezones - you have a lookup table for each part of the world to find out what people do at a certain time, except instead of being a single offset you have like a list of times like “school openings”, “typical work hours”, “typical waking hours” (?) etc. This system is basically timezones but harder to use for humans. So the author asking “but what time is it in Melbourne?” is in the context of this table not actually existing, because if it did, then you haven’t actually abolished time zones.
I disagree about the table - if you’re interacting regularly across timezones you tend to convert everything to your local time anyway - India’s on lunch at 9am, US is starting at 14:00, because that’s how it fits into your day.
Yeah but also if we’re being honest, from a programmer perspective the timezone has no bearing on what you do, and is hence not a problem at all.
After all, much like you translate the language of your UI when displaying in X, you also add Y hours to all times shown in X. Done. You wouldn’t even need to persist the zoned time data anywhere, given their static nature you could decide the final timestamp shown at display time, purely on a client, visual, level.
OTOH, daylight saving time turns itself - and timezones - into an utter mess and whoever invented them hopefully is proud of the raw amount of grief and harm they caused the world. It causes all kinds of issues with persistence, conversion and temporal shifts in displayed time due to the ephemeral nature of the +X minutes added. Or not. That’s the worst part.
So timezones: Fine, it’s just bling bling on display anyways.
DST: Burn it at the stake.Yeah, I’m in agreement that DST is kinda pointless and could probably be abolished, but the thread is about abolishing timezones in general (or so I thought).
Abolishing DST doesn’t eliminate all the weird issues with “ephemeral” offsets though. Suppose the user wants to set a reminder for a recurring event at 3pm, and then moves to another country. Do you keep reminding them at 3pm in the new time zone or the old time zone? Maybe the reminder was “walk the dog” and the user meant for it to be at 3pm local time, or maybe it was “attend international meeting” and the user meant it to be at 3pm in the original timezone. (This admittedly only happens to calendar apps so isn’t something that most applications have to deal with, unlike displaying timestamps in general.)
But other than that, I’m of the opinion that as programmers we’re supposed to model the problem space as best we can and write software that fits the problem, rather than change the problem to fit our existing solution. After all, software is written to be used by humans, not the other way round (at least not yet). So if DST is something those wacky humans want and use, then a correct program is one which handles them correctly, and a programmers job is to deal with the complexity.
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Time zones are part of it, but also daylight savings is a real pain in the ass. And like you said it gets particularly complicated when you’re dealing with a system that deals with these things as an afterthought, which seems to be a lot of older libraries for time. For instance, the Java date utils are a nightmare and are now considered semi deprecated replaced by a new java.time api. That is, of course, no help for the ridiculous amount of things that depend on these stupid date utils and no one wants to spend the dev hours to refactor.
Before timezones and trains, each town had its own natural time (based on the sun or whatever). Would you have preferred that?
tbf there are libraries capable of handling that too, like rust’s chrono
I feel you’re conflating TimeZones with ever-changing Daylight Savings time rules.
True but so do most computers. Computers have a database of timezones and time offsets around the world. Depending on the UTC date and time, and your current timezone it will look up what offset to apply to show the local time. The database is very gnarly since rules change over time, e.g. maybe in the 70s some countries had longer DST to counteract oil shortages.
You don’t have to go back to the 70s for changes. Kazakhstan has changed from two time zones to one just about a month ago.
And there was much rejoicing (not)
Cool, so sunrise is at 8 PM now. Or maybe there’s just no consistent relationship between what a clock on the East and West coast of America say, and a call can’t be scheduled between them.
The real problem with time and date is that it has to fit social and natural systems as well as actual passage of time. A lot of nuance is unavoidable.
Yeah, tbh the “no timezones” approach comes with its own basket of problems that isn’t necessarily better than the “with timezones” basket. The system needed to find a balance between being useful locally, but intelligible across regions. Especially challenging before ubiquitous telecommunications
Imagine having to rethink the social norms around time every time you travel or meet someone from far away. They say “Oh I work a 9-to-5 office job” and then you need to figure out where they live to understand what that means. Or a doctor writes a book where they recommend that you get to bed by 2:00PM every night, and then you need to figure out how to translate that to a time that makes sense for you.
We’d invent and use informal timezones anyway, and then we’d be writing Javascript functions to translate “real” times to “colloquial” times, and that’s pretty close to just storing datetimes in UTC then translating them to a relevant timezone ad hoc, which is what we’re already doing.
That’s what my rational programmer brain says. My emotional programmer brain is exactly this meme.
My emotional brain thinks we should just give up and climb back into the trees.
Funny enough, a story just broke about a lunar timezone, which would lose a second or so every year relative to Earth due to relativity. If space travel becomes a big thing we’re going to have to choose a frame of reference, and probably just go with Unix epoch in that frame as the universal time. Hopefully it doesn’t happen to pass through a black hole, because there’s no consistent way to define a frame of reference that’s not subject to gravity.
Yes! Very much so.
This is a good illustration of exactly why timezones exist and the issues with not having them.
This guy has a lot of these, it’s kind of a classic now. I hadn’t even thought of managing days.
China uses a single timezone where similar width countries use three or more. So some parts start the day at 8am, others start at 10am
If we used a single timezone in the west it would be UTC which is practically on the other side of the world to me - I’m in +11 now, +10 when we go back to standard time in a week. That would make it reasonably easy here, the clock would be out by near enough to 12 hours (if you prefer light in the evening) that you’d be fine on a 12 hour clock just inverting am and pm
America would be a trip, though. 8 PM sunrise would be a thing depending on time of year.
TIL about China.
But if time travel is a thing, imagine the whole new time nightmares! Oh you went back a year with your phone? Now all your TLS root certs are invalid because you’re before the start date. Or you have files/emails/whatever that are dated in the future. I guess you can get to that state by just setting your clock forward but I imagine some stuff would break.
I worked on a project that had a few spots where we compare a saved timestamp to the current time. During testing, the client would randomly change their device time a few days forward or backward and complain that things weren’t working as expected. I had to explain to them multiple times that they were basically time traveling, and the program was actually handling it fairly well all things considered.
well thats the funny thing, it’s technically not time travel, it’s just time dilation if you squint hard enough. So technically, it doesn’t matter.
I once developed an electronic program guide for a cable TV company in New Zealand and I’d lose my mind if I had to use timezones. The basic rule of thumb was:
a) Internally you use UTC religiously. UTC is the same everywhere on Earth, time always goes forward, most languages have classes that represent instants, durations etc. In addition you make damned sure your server time is correct and UTC.
b) You only deal with timezones when presenting something to a user or taking input from a user
Prior to that I had worked for a US trading company that set all their servers to EST and was receiving trades through the system which expressed time & date ambiguously. Just had to assume everywhere that EST was the default but it was just dumb programming and I bet to this day every piece of code they develop has time bugs.
Standardising on EST is fine; it’s just UTC plus a constant. If they flipped between EST and EDT, now that’d be insane.
Yes as long as the rules are known, but it’s really just better to do things sanely and leave no margin of doubt.
Yep, case in point flipping between EST and EDT may be “insane” but that’s the default for systemd-timesyncd. So now you have to be 100% certain that it’s disabled on your servers, and on the remote hosts interacting with them.
Best I’ve seen is a process scheduled on UK local time (including hour changes) running on a server that maintains Eastern local (including hour changes) but the process logs in EST ( and does not move with the hour)
time always goes forward
It not always goes and not always forward. I think you need metric time(TAI) instread.
UTC always goes forward regardless of the timezone and local time. That is why you should use it. To take my EPG situation above, I stored program start / end times in UTC so they would render properly even if DST kicked in or not during the middle of the program.
Ok, this is more unix time quirk that can’t handle 24:00:00 and skipping 23:59:59.
UTC always goes forward regardless of the timezone and local time
But not unix time.
I stored program start / end times in UTC
If your program finishes in less than one seond it might report negative time.
I didn’t say Unix time, I said UTC. And no it won’t report negative time, not unless somehow the system clock was modified while it was running…
not unless somehow the system clock was modified while it was running…
Which is how most systems handle leap seconds.
Leap seconds still make time go forwards, not backwards. NTP clients would also resolve small time discrepancies while still advancing forwards prior to the next time sync.
Leap seconds can make time go both ways, but adding them makes time stop/go back because 24:00:00 cannot be represented as 1/86400 part of day N instead of day N+1 on major OSes. And they were only added so far.
The only code with timezones should be the bit squishy meat bags touch. Everything’s is should be UNIX time. Or it you are unfortunate enough to be on Windows, NT time.
Some unfortunate programmers already have to deal with the speed of time not being a constant. In a distant future, timestamps might always have a universal position (and speed), and is that much different from timezones?
Or we find some way of removing time distortion of physics. Find the universe’s real systick. 😃
No UTC. Convert/use UTC on the way in and covert to local time for the user or local time of the noun the date is for in the display.
Any UTC type is going to do native time and convert for display.
But with native time directly, you can just an int64 with loads of space for fine resolution via multiplication.
Storing time broken up into separate units is crazy.
I’m not a developer but give him one for me too
DST is a digital STD
