- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.world
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Pipewire and Wayland are boss brothers
Well, you’re half right. Pipewire rocks.
Yes my experience with PipeWire had been flawless. Not so much with Wayland…
Oh! There’s the wayland brigade. I dared speak out against their Frankensteinian creation. Thanks for the downvotes.
Well I wasn’t gonna downvote before, but now I am. Can’t stand this kind of fragility.
It’s the Wayland folks who can’t handle criticism. You are evidence of that. :)
You didn’t criticize it, you simply stated that it was bad, in a clear attempt at baiting a reaction out of people. This is fragile loser behavior and indicative of an unwell mind. Seek healing.
Yeah sure. Ok there, bud.
No it’s the way you speak about it.
I also currently have more problems with Wayland than with Xorg and find a few design decisions highly questionable, but that’s no reason to completely talk it down in the way you do. You don’t have to like it, you can criticize it, but you should stay civil.
You are too sensible. He just said Wayland doesn’t rock, and its just a fact. If Wayland “rocks” why it need much more work to implement a WM ? (please don’t talk me about wlroots, its not part of Wayland), and in the end it fragments Linux desktop ! Wayland will replace X but it is not a brillant project.
More work to implement a WM without using something like wlroots? That’s a fundamentally flawed argument, you seem to believe there is no X protocol, when in fact, X11 is just an implementation of the X protocol, just like wlroots is an implementation of the wayland protocol.
Have you ever tried implementing the X protocol without X11? Good luck. There’s no other implementations because creating one is awful. Wlroots solved the same problem as X11 did, actually implementing the protocol in a way that other projects can make their own WM’s/whatnot easily.
wlroots IS equivalent to X11, wayland is equivalent to the X protocol. Nobody has reimplemented the X protocol.
wlroots is an implementation, just like x11, so, yes, that is how it works on the x.org side of things.
True, I only focused on the “Frankenstein” comment. The initial comment wasn’t this condescending. It was quite cynical, but I am not sure that warranted these many downvotes.
Anyway: there was an intesting article recently that explained the architecture, and it makes sense. But it also shows the downsides.
https://pointieststick.com/2023/09/17/so-lets-talk-about-this-wayland-thing/
It is something to be squashed, like bug, yes? Yes.
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Sigh, kids these days.
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… as this chump continues to rice KDE3/GTK2 themes in their basement on their modded T430, a G40x mouse and a $100 gaming chair.
Why don’t you like Wayland?
Drag and drop often does not work
Because it isn’t a proper X12. Because waypipe is an add-on, not treated as the most important and core internal functionality. Because it’s made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for Linux native games. Because dev work left real X to work on a toy and not backport features to X. Because until recently, it punished anyone on nvidia. Wish Wayland would just die and a proper X12 produced.
The whole point of Wayland to be a successor to X11 but not using X, made by the same devs that developed X11 to specifically move away from X. Backporting features would miss the whole point because devs left because adding new features to X was getting too difficult and messy according to them, due to how big and all-encompassing and inter-connected that protocol was.
And being punished for using Nvidia was Nvidia’s fault, not Wayland’s.
made by the same devs that developed X11 to specifically move away from X
There are probably Xorg maintainers in that project, but I doubt about X11 protocol creators. This is a different thing.
The only proper thing to do was to continue X development. It just needed proper funding and for people to quit battling over licences. Throwing it all out and replacing it with something not even based around network displays was madness. Now we have this hodgepodge of kluges taped together to try and barely imitate what we once had. It’s an embarrassing disgrace.
The “just” there is doing a lot of work considering the devs themselves disagreed. Sorry, but, I’m going to trust their judgement.
…also the whole networked displays themselves was what caused a lot of problems, according to the devs. Using it for a modern display stack was like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Terminals have fallen out of favor ages ago, and personal computing devices today favour things like high responsiveness, clean images, and high refresh rates instead. And we got enough computing power to just stream a video stream directly if that’s needed now.
Not a single x11 developer agrees with you.
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until recently, it punished anyone on Nvidia
My brother in Christ, it’s Nvidia punishing you for using Wayland.
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It’s called having a job. Try it sometime.
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Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing? Sure remote graphical sessions are neat but there are only a few people who really need it or not? At least I do not see how this is really that beneficial on linux compared to just basic shell stuff that most people are using when doing something remotely. Maybe it is something that the big businesses are using but then there will probably be a discussion to really add it to the protocol directly (if that is even actually needed, waypipe is a software stack that works (with limitations) with the current protocol; wayvnc for wlroots-based compositors seems to work fine and gnome and weston also implement some kind of RDP)
Also, what do you mean “it is made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for linux native games”? Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added, just like using the pulseaudio server for pipewire until pipewire is completely supported? I am currently slowly transitioning to wayland so I don’t know if there are actually any so please tell me if it is the case or if I am missing something.
Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing?
Because it is. Use it every day. Very important feature for work.
only a few people who really need it or not?
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
wayvnc
That you even think that is a solution shows you know nothing about the problem.
Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added
Please… tell me which games you speak of? What is this list native games for Linux? I hope you don’t mean games running on Wine. That’s another huge problem that the kids all seem to just adore these days, and an entirely other argument.
If you want to game, stick to Windows. Linux is for work and those who like having a UNIX like system at home. Wayland and Wine are not for either of those.
There’s really no truth to anything you’re saying here, whatsoever.
Linux is fantastic for gaming, I use it exclusively, the steam deck being a real thriving product is evidence of this.
Only core functionality should be the default, everything else SHOULD be an add-on, including remote desktop. Insane bloat is what caused X11 to fail. A fix is in the works: https://planet.kde.org/arjen-hiemstra-2023-08-08-remote-desktop-using-the-rdp-protocol-for-plasma-wayland/
Unfortunately your usecase is rare, so, there’s little motivation to fix it. This isn’t because everyone else “just plays around” with their computers, it’s that very few people do what you do, and so it isn’t considered the most important usecase, and devs care about more important things. Furthermore there’s NO DOWNSIDE whatsoever to making it an add-on. This can all be worked on later, it being an add-on won’t impede any progress, in fact, it’ll make it EASIER to make progress, because the core protocol will be rather solid in foundation.
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
What is your definition of playing? I use it to code, access my server for some self-hosted services, do office stuff and sure, also for gaming and watching videos. Am I disallowed to wanting to develop at ease with a minimal setup compared to windows and avoid shit like forced cloud stuff because I am gaming on this os? Isn’t it my choice and compliant to free and open source software to have the freedom to use the OS one has the best experience with?
About the gaming stuff: As I have said, I am just currently converting to wayland, so I don’t know of issues because I haven’t tried linux native games extensively. Wine doesn’t have working wayland support but is still (in my short experience) working with xwayland. Linux native games I will try soon are Cassette Beasts, Stardew Valley and maybe Cross Code at some time, all actually native games.
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Both Wayland and Pipewire have been the direct cause of unusable VMs. Replacing them with Xorg and Pulse makes all the VMs usable again. This has been the case in VMWare, Virtualbox, and Hyper-V. VMs in Proxmox have been less problematic but still problematic.
This is, without any doubt, user error.
If you find genuine issues like this, submit the reports. Otherwise it just sounds like pretentious elitism
What issues have you encountered with using a VM with Pipewire and Wayland? My VMs are doing just fine…
Running KDE Plasma Wayland (with XWayland) with PulseAudio replaced with PipeWire. I can use Virtualbox just fine.
XD
Pipewire is amazing. Linux had issues with Bluetooth audio that Pipewire finally fixed.
It’s not that pipewire is amazing, pipewire works.
It’s just that pulseaudio was written by people who hate software.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The PipeWire audio and video streams solution for the Linux desktop is planning its big version “1.0” release for later in the year.
In response to an issue ticket around whether a 1.0 release is coming or perhaps a year/month based versioning format, PipeWire founder Wim Taymans of Red Hat confirmed plans for releasing PipeWire 1.0 later in the year.
The missing feature that is being worked on prior to PipeWire 1.0 is an IRQ-based ALSA driver for professional audio purposes that can match the latency of JACK.
A solution to that feat is currently being worked on via this Git branch.
So with a bit of luck, PipeWire 1.0 will be out later in 2023 to succeed the long-running 0.3.xx releases.
A PipeWire 1.0 release makes sense given that PipeWire is now widely used on the Linux desktop for audio and video streams, heavily relied upon in a Wayland and Flatpak world, and has proven itself stable for quite some time and being quite a versatile solution.
The original article contains 168 words, the summary contains 168 words. Saved 0%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Wow, amazing summary
PipeWire gud, but PipeWire 1.0 bettur
Saved 96.43%
Did you even try?
I love you, bot.
:kiss:
Hi bot, you forgot the ! after “0%”
wait… it ain’t 1.0 yet, but it still fully works? noice!
0.x versions allow for breaking changes to be made to configuration (and whatnot), which allows stabilization for 1.x versions (which OTOH shouldn’t allow breaking changes without a major bump).
otoh?
on the other hand
on the other hand
Bitcoin Core went from 0.20.1 to 0.21 to 0.21.1 to 22.0 in 2021. Even though it was completely functional for over a decade at that point and was handling billions of dollars in transactions
I love reading Pro Audio in an article. If Linux would handle audio softwares and interface just a little better, I could ditch win and macOS forever.
Linux Audio is past maturity. It’s at the point of covering edge cases and improving further.
In my experience Linux handles audio better…
Only issue is that it won’t pass atmos yet but otherwise way better experience for me over windows.
Excuse my ignorance, I have no use for Atmos, but what does it do?
It is a Dolby audio format for surround sound with heigh channels mainly for movies but also can be used in gaming.
May I ask if this marketing or is it actually good? Because I supposedly had this on an old phone.
I would not tell anyone to go out and buy it as the set up requires too much work equipment matching to work properly.
When it works it is deff nice to have esp for console gaming and proper blue rays.
Windows provided decent support so I deff enjoyed for games that also support it.
Small price to be Libre IMHO I would not go back to windows for it.
It will come to Linux if migration keeps us this rate. Gamers switching is best best for mainstream adoption and it is now possible.
Side note, it is not going to do shit on the phone of teevee speakers.
You really need proper surround system that is atmos enabled, precisely old school AV route.
However, 1k soundbar can do a decent job.
Thanks for the replies. I do some audio production and it’s come up a couple of times but I have been flat out saying I’m not going to support it. Kind of good to hear I maybe able to in the future.
That would have been pure marketing bollocks then.
Needs a full set of surround speakers, and speakers in your ceiling to anywhere near the full effect, which can be subtle at the best of times.
Basically instead of just 7.1 channels, you get extra channels with positional data in them, and then the system works out which speakers to play them through.
I had to buy new speakers to get Pipewire or Pulseaudio to work with 5.1 speakers as the channels were completely messed up otherwise. Worked perfectly on windows and the speakers work perfectly hooked up to my TV as well.
Virtual 5.1 isn’t as good but it at least works.
What are you talking about? Linux handles audio just fine.
Lol, maybe for you, but definitly not for everyone. I work in audio, it’s my job, so i need to do advanced audio stuff. I have two computer on Linux and neither can properly use 2 out of 3 interfaces I’ve tried. They all work fine under macOS and wndows. Many plugins dont work under linux, others requires a lot of tweaking. Those are just a few examples. I really like Linux but it’s not yet capable to replace the other OS for pro audio work. I wish it was but its not the case rn.
PipeWire + JDSP4Linux ヾ(⌐■_■)ノ♪
whats the other thing
Audio effect proceasor with parametric eq (with list of profiles tuned for over 1000 headphones using oratory and others presets).
wait so what does this do for you, make the eq nicer?
For example, yes. I use it mainly for the Parametric EQ with my HD650 headphones. But you can boost sound stage wideness as well for example, change sound positioning, etc…
Pipewire has been great, except for some edge cases
Still got passthrough issues 2years later
Pipewire doesn’t work in games for me so I switched back to Pulse. No issues since.
Have you filed an issue with all the necessary information, so one of the devs can try to investigate?
@carter@feddit.uk plead the Fifth! 🤫
I’m not the only one! It doesn’t work with my sound bar, and the developers think that editing 3 (!) obscure config files is an acceptable workaround.
