The most important thing I’ve learned from discussions around this conflict is that about 95% of the chucklefucks involved are not equipped to discuss it and should shut the fuck up, myself included
I keep seeing this question and I’m in disbelief anyone is actually parroting this in good faith.
Not genocide? Can they not do genocide? There are a million different options to combat terrorism but right wing governments only know how to send in shock troops into civilian populations. Just because these assholes are assholes doesn’t mean this is the only option.
Preface: I do not know enough of this subject or conflict to speak authoritatively.
If they were told to leave their homes and take a certain path to avoid being bombed, trusted that advice but were bombed on the “safe” path anyway by the very people who told them they would be safe if they took said path, why should they continue to trust whoever told them that?
Furthermore, if there were bombs dropping on and/or around you no matter what you did or who you listened to, simply for existing in the wrong place and at no fault of your own, wouldn’t you rather at least be in the “comfort” of your own home?
How do you know this? Is it from the say people who said their was a hospital bombing ? They lie about everything. I’m not saying I know for sure but I am skeptical. It is possible some people were bombed but there are many many people who evacuated to the South
Because pals always lie, because all these Arab countries are propaganda regimes. They had hamas spokespeople on CNN and BBC saying things like civilians are were not targeted on 10/7. They tell the most ridiculous lies. Do you you also think North Korea are not liars, do you Believe the North Korean dictator for 18 holes in one at golf?
Great job on stereotyping an entire population of peoples as liars. 👍
And downplaying the loss of innocent lives to boot.
It is “possible” that some were bombed? I guess as long as only some innocent people were bombed everything is ok. After all “many many” were safely uprooted from their homes and evacuated south. Hooray…
I doubt this will sink in but I have to try. There have definitely been innocent lives lost from both sides of this conflict and every one of them is a tragedy. I’m not advocating for either side here because everyone involved in the loss of innocent lives sucks. I don’t have a magical solution either so don’t bother asking. Innocent people have already, and will continue to die in this conflict. Don’t try to make it seem like innocent casualties aren’t a big deal.
They are mowing them down en masse though. The reason more haven’t been killed is because they have shelters and tunnels to protect from the strikes. They have leveled whole villages, apartment towers holding hundreds of people, and struck routes specifically designated by the IDF as safe avenues for people to escape. The number killed is likely much higher than the reports we have seen, like after an earthquake or other disasters there are hundreds of people labeled ‘missing’ until they are more certain they are deceased.
Hamas has vowed for eternal war, they are fascists who say they will not accept Israel existence in any capacity. They start wars make all these threats and then when they die they go ‘oh look at the children’. A person with morals and strong intellect.can see they of course.these evil people will lie and flail in every disingenuous way. Truly disgusting people, threaten genocide all die and cry about any steps taken against them. The other Arab countries are much more severe with dissidents, they understand the mentality better
B) Israel isn’t committing genocide. If they were honestly attempting genocide right now, they’d provably be so laughably bad at it that no one should fear it
“…inside and outside of Palestine” in case you thought this was just about Israel/Palestine and not about genocide against Jews. Keep in mind these people think all of Israel is Palestine.
These are bad people and you’re dumb for supporting them.
If someone argument is: they warn them, even though there are pictures of convey leaving an area getting bombed, or death numbers, in non hamas areas, west bank, has sky rocketed, you can tell they don’t care about human dying, they just want to win an argument over the internet.
They bomb where there are terrorists and there are definitely terrorists in the west bank, they hide behind civilians for propaganda and safety. Civilians will definitely get killed, it’s a war and this happens in every war
Not if there are enemy combatants in those places. You can’t launch missiles from a hospital and expect the enemy not to strike at your missile stockpile
If terrorists are shooting missiles at you, you have the right to respond and shoot missiles back. If you warned the civilians and not all of them left, that’s a situation out of your control. Do you have an alternate solution?
They don’t do a great job of it, but when has anyone else prevented all civilian casualties in a war? It doesn’t mean they don’t have the right to strike at Hamas
That’s right that they don’t do a great job at that as they kill over 20 times more Palestinians than Hamas kills Israeli. They just don’t care at all.
That’s such a dumb argument, Hamas would LOVE to kill more civilians in fact they’d like to kill all the Jewish people in Israel. Israel could very easily kill everyone in Gaza but instead they’re building complex defensive systems and using incredibly expensive systems to try and limit civilian casualties.
By internationally recognized you mean recognized by the Muslim community.
Up until 1967 Egypt controlled gaza and Jordan the west bank and there was no talk of peace, the line has always been there can be no state of Israel in any form. Within the last 20 years pals have been offered states on the 1967 borders and refused. The Oslo accords which included incremental steps to peace led to nothing but terrorism, all the aid pals receive they use for terrorism. They have explicitly unanimously said for decades that they will fight Israel to the death and have not made any offers or concessions to peace and you want to just these Islamic fundamentalist to behave if they let them into Israel? Do you know the history of Lebanon. You are native if you think you can trust hamas’, ISIS… Did you not see hamas on TV saying they didn’t target civilians in their attacks?
Before 1967 the arabs refused to accept the state of Israel and launched a war to destroy it in 1967 so they lost the land. The land is not held for them in perpetuity to attack and attack… If they want peace they have to give in peace, if they attack them they should be attacked, it is simple.
No one should be kept in prison but you keep a murderer in prison because of what they’ve done.
At this point you will say, well what about what Israel did… And I promise you if you go back pals have instigated every conflict. They are unwilling to live in peace with non Muslim, they follow a fascist Islamic ideology and are explicit about it. The jews , who are the natives of the land, have repeatedly shown a willingness to live in peace with arabs, with a pal state and with arabs in the Jewish state. During the Oslo peace negotiations they talked about putting Arab areae of Israel under the PLO and the Israeli arabs absolutely refused, Arabs living in Israel have better quality of life than anywhere in the Arab world, Arab countries are corrupt theocracies, Israel is a liberal democracy , this is why the fascist Muslims hate it, this is what they are talking about when they say ‘european colonialsim’, that it’s not a fascist Muslim theocracy
So since you’re a massive moron I don’t plan to engage with you much longer, but lemme say this: Netenyahu’s election platform is and has been for thirty years not making peace with Palestinians. He’s actively sabotaged the Palestinian peace movement over and over to prevent it from happening.
Yeah he won because before him you had leftist prime ministers who offered everything to the pals, have them more autonomy and it only resulted in more terrorism. The pals will fight to the death no matter what, they say so explicitly, they don’t want freedom or prosperity they are Islamic fascist and want to destroy Israel , that’s it. If they wanted peace and prosperity they’ve already had every opportunity
1947 is its own mess, but it was Israel (specifically Netenyahu) who called off the Oslo accords. Where the fuck did you find that Palestinians refused a two state solution in 1993?
The Palestinians suspended the talks and never made a counter offer. After that Hamas etc sent suicide bombers and an Israeli terrorist machine gunned a mosque and there’s never been a chance of peace since
In Israel’s May 1999 elections, the Labor Party’s Ehud Barak decisively defeated Netanyahu. Barak predicted that he could reach agreements with both Syria and the Palestinians in 12 to 15 months, and pledged to withdraw Israeli troops from southern Lebanon. In September, Barak signed the Sharm al-Shaykh Memorandum with Arafat, which committed both sides to begin permanent status negotiations. An initial round of meetings, however, achieved nothing, and by December the Palestinians suspended talks over settlement-building in the occupied territories.
Special forces operations meticulously planned to clear out the tunnels, with both less lethal options and lethal options depending on whether resistance is armed or not.
Using precision munitions on verified targets instead of levelling entire blocks
Not turning off electricity to children’s hospitals
Not starving people
Even if you fully believe that Hamas should be and can be ripped out root and stem, cutting off electricity and food is completely inexcusable.
I never said cutting off electricity and food is necessary. I agree that precision strikes (with prior notification to civilians) are the preferred way to destroy military targets, but I also think Israel has the right to go in and remove Hamas permanently. This would also cause civilian casualties, but Hamas has shown it’s not an organization that can be allowed to exist
Yep, people like to look and see black and white, but situation is very complex.
Is a roller coaster when you start learning more about it, but it followed:
Israel is supported by my country so they are the good guys
Jews came from Europe and took land from them, and keep them in open prison, also killing them, including children, now they are bombing civilians, many innocent people are dying
oh wait it actually it wasn’t exactly Palestinian land until recently, Jews are technically Palestinians that were run to Europe by Arabs. The Palestinians also don’t want any compromise and won’t stop until they eradicate every single Jew and the entire land will be Arab. (here’s where I’m and I’m sure there’s more)
Oh the fuck this is so complex, and the worst thing is there isn’t any way solution in sight because at least one side doesn’t want any compromise.
I saw comment and I believe it is most accurate of this situation. There won’t be a peace until Palestinians will start loving their children more than they hate Jews.
Again, I don’t support what Israeli government is doing, they do kill innocent people in the process, but Palestinians aren’t exactly greatest neighbors either. The countries that in the past accepted them as refugees ended up having civil wars started by them.
Maybe better than Europeans but not ‘well’ there have been discriminatory laws in many Muslim countries over the years and most Muslim countries have ethnically cleaned their countries of Jews, Jewish communities in Iraq, syria etc… Pre date islam.
And of course under ottoman rule their were laws against Jews immigrating to palestine
oh wait it actually it wasn’t exactly Palestinian land until recently, Jews are technically Palestinians that were run to Europe by Arabs. The Palestinians also don’t want any compromise and won’t stop until they eradicate every single Jew and the entire land will be Arab. (here’s where I’m and I’m sure there’s more)
This is misinformation. Even Hamas said they want a two-state solution. Fucking Hamas. Meanwhile Israel… Well you can look up Netenyahu’s position on the conflict yourself.
Oh the fuck this is so complex, and the worst thing is there isn’t any way solution in sight because at least one side doesn’t want any compromise.
Tbf, aside from lobbing missile into other country, Hamas has to bear some blame here. If they would recognize Israel as a country, the conflict will likely turn its tide. That is the compromise they wouldn’t take.
If they would recognize Israel as a country, the conflict will likely turn its tide.
I’m not sure how that would happen. There have been two ceasefires with Hamas that fell apart because Israel didn’t lift the blockade as promised, even as Hamas followed it for months on end.
We already know Netenyahu’s position on Palestine; he’s not exactly trying to hide it, and the West Bank is currently being colonized (up to and including pogroms) by Israel so it’s not like peace is working either.
Are you old enough to remember the Olso accords and the peace process? Pals have been offered states numerous times, they don’t want it , they want to fight, every resource they use for terror. Israel is just supposed to make concessions until the pals come around to peace ? They will not.
You don’t understand the mindset, if you lived in any Muslim country particularly in the Midwest you would find things very difficult, particularly if you are a women, or gay, or a non Muslim. They will kill a woman who doesn’t wear her scarf, forget about talking to men… these people are fascist in a way that you do not understand
Because by then all the ball will be on Netanyahu’s court. When Hamas announce their new charter, US made it clear that if it doesn’t include recognizing Israel as a country then they will not have a dialog. Of course, at that time there’s Trump so it won’t work regardless, and now it’s too late.
Because by then all the ball will be on Netanyahu’s court.
It’s been for a long time now. Netenyahu and his ilk have made it very clear they don’t want a Palestinian state. Like they’re turning it into an election platform. The PLO recognized Israel in preparation for the Oslo Accords, and what happened? What’s the state of the PNA now?
You can look up the hamas charter, they advocate genocide.
You are ignorant of history, pals have been offered statehood numerous times throughout the years and their position has always been there can be no Jewish presence in Israel.
The PLO dropped that position in the 80s, and even Hamas dropped it sometime in the 2000s/2010s. You’re the one who’s ignorant of history. And they’re not pals, they’re Palestinians.
And regardless of what they say their actions speak louder than words and they lie about absolutely everything, how naive.couod you be? Didn’t you see hamas on cnn this week saying things like they did not target civilians on 10/7, they are decrepit.
You might want to continue to learn about the issue, as your comment is not exactly an even analysis. It seems more like a narrative wrapped up in surface-level analysis.
It’s not complex at all. Palestinians have been ejected from their homes time and again by the State of Israel. Now they’ve been forced out of the West Bank and are all in Gaza, an open air prison. Hamas, a terrorist group, attacks Israel. Israel indiscriminately starts bombing Gaza where half of the inmates are children. Predictably, loads of civilians and children die.
People with a soul are on the side of the innocent civilians being murdered in an open air prison they were forced into by the apartheid Israeli government. It’s really that simple.
It was Egypt that turned Gaza into a prison in '48… And I don’t think Israel ever forced anyone from the WB to go live in Gaza? It seems it’s not really that simple
The simple reality is that islam is a fascist religion and are willing to live in peace with a Jewish state of any borders, look up the 1948 UN partition, whereas Israel has made numerous offers and concessions to peace over the year.
I promise you any thing you say for why pals are justified in their actions because of their oppression is a distortion of history, that pals have started every single conflict.
Unless your position is that the quaran was revealed to Mohamed by God and Hamas has interpreted correctly to say that there can only be Muslim nations in the world then you are supporting fascist idiotic terrorists.
Jews are the natives of the land, you can see there is a mosque built on the Jewish temple, Islam is the colonizer, islam is intolerant, and it’s not just in Israel, it’s in many countries
Yeah, because the Tanakh is so benevolent and all iterations of it are peaceful. Fuck this Sam Harris justification for Islamophobia. All these religions can be fascist, all these religions can be peaceful.
Followers of Islam once carried on the spirit of enlightenment and philosophy while Christians were in the depths of their dark ages. They maintained the knowledge that came from across the old world, while making essential contributions to important things like: The scientific method, social science as a field, economics, culture, and mathematics.
Where the fuck do you think Arabic numerals like 1, 9, or 0 came from? Europe? No. They were invented in India and spread through the world by Islamic cultures and states. Everyone on earth uses these numerals, a universal human language, all thanks to the Islamic world.
So fuck your assertions that Islam is a uniquely terrible religion. If Islam is a religion that can’t exist in a peaceful world, no religion can exist in a peaceful world. How can a religion that helped everyone speak the same language, that has historically existed at the crossroads between Europe, Asia, and Africa, be incompatible with other cultures? It’s a non factor in the discussion of Palestine and Israel.
And I’ve seen your approach of equating opposition to Israel killing innocents with endorsement of Hamas way, way too many times.
It’s a tired approach, but it is often successful.
I want Hamas to stop existing, full stop. However, I don’t think Isreal gets any closer to destroying Hamas using their current strategy. The only way it could work is if they kill all Palestinians, which is not at all acceptable.
The israelis who have been victimized by terror for decades seem to have given up caring what you think of their approach. If Palestinians continue to defend and cooperate with Hamas, they will absolutely be putting themselves at risk - they are making themselves combatants by the Geneva convention.
Not all Palestinians are Hamas, no one is saying that. Until the Palestinians start putting a divide between who’s supporting Hamas (thousands of people cheering over a raped and brutalized body of a hostage? That’s supporting Hamas just so we’re clear) and who’s not they’re all at risk. Running to the roof of a building as a human shield, putting yourself intentionally at risk after being warned? Also supporting Hamas.
Israelis nor Palestinians will be safe until Hamas has been removed from their hold on the strip. That’s the reality that the western world understands and has shown support for.
It is true that Isreal has ultimate say over what they do. That said, many Israelis have always opposed their country’s treatment of Palestinians. Many Palestinians with influence abroad condemn Hamas, but people see their concern for innocent civilians and filter out their condemnation of Hamas. There are Palestinians making the divide, but y’all refuse to listen to them or other people that stand by them.
There are dumbasses who support Hamas, but most people that oppose Isreal’s campaign don’t. The Harvard students who’ve been harassed for a statement they made copied most of their statement from an Israeli newspaper. They did not defend Hamas. The Jewish activists who sat in at the US Capitol did not defend Hamas, but people claimed they did. Even if you’re a Jewish Israeli, you can’t even critique Isreal’s response without people claiming you love Hamas. It’s some McCarthyism shit, and you’re perpetuating it.
This all comes back to my point that Israel’s strategy won’t work. I want Hamas destroyed, but I recognize that the IDF has failed to weaken Hamas for decades, and cannot be trusted to do it now. In fact, their current warpath is exactly what Hamas wants them to do. Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians, they only want to rule over them. You think Hamas didn’t expect Isreal to do exactly what they’ve been doing? They wanted Isreal to act like an existential threat, because that pushes Palestinians into seeing Hamas as the only option. The biggest treat to Hamas is a more moderate Isreal. The internal Israeli resistance to Netanyahu was the real threat to Hamas’ power, as Bibi has long worked to weaken the PLO more than Hamas.
ISIS and hamas are not enlightened islam, a religion follows it’s interpretation and what ISIS and Hamas do is blasphemy. Islam is not from God, it may have worked in the middle ages but now people who are reading it are insane fundamentalist. There are peaceful Muslims but not the mullahs in Iran, or ISIS or Hamas. Yes the bible says to kill people who violate the sabbath but functionally speaking no one is killed for violating the sabbath and it was not even interpreted that way in biblical times. The war musings of the quaran are interpreted this way by Muslims around the world.
Even if there are more fundamentalist Muslims today than fundamentalist Christians, that does not mean the entire religion cannot exist in a peaceful world. Certain sects and interpretations might be unacceptable, but as long as there is a single Muslim that works towards peace and coexistence, a single peaceful interpretation of the Quran, you can’t say we should not tolerate Islam. This absolutism is evil, stupid, and you should feel bad for falling into bigotry. Just make a distinction between theocratic fascists and religious people. Stop equating the two.
There are way more fundamentalist Muslims and further more fundamentalist Christians are not dangerous, the religion of the New testament is love and evangelism. The Spanish inquisition was not based on anything from the bible.
In islam it is not a far fetched interpretation to say that the world should be violently conquered in the name of islam, they follows from a simple reading and the leaders of many Arab governments such as Iran follow it. Half of Iran hates this fundamentalist interpretation but the other half doesn’t and they are dangerous. And throughout the Muslim world - the 911 hijackers, ISIS, Hamas there are these extremists. Yes it is possible to have a peaceful islam they coexists but it’s also possible that islamic fascism will be predominate and it is dangerous and it should be fought
You must have a very strange definition of Christian fundamentalism, because the people I would describe as fundamentalists are absolutely a threat. You also seem to think that people don’t use Bible passages to justify basically anything while still claiming only their interpretation is valid. These people think of themselves as having the actual, literal interpretation of the Bible.
What pisses me off the most is that fascist Christians are the biggest threat to me personally. They’re the people calling for people like me to be eradicated from public life or straight up killed. I’m not over here arguing that we should do the same thing to Christians that you endorse against Muslims.
Even if the Bible had no passages encouraging fucked up behavior, the existence of Christian fascists shows that the content of the religious text does not prevent a religion from fueling fascism.
So what you are gay or trans? Show me the worst thing a Christian fascist has done. In gaza you would be killed, it would be endorsed by the government, it is routine they they kill gays, you know that right ?
In Christianity there are a wide range of interpretations but the text of the bible does not say to violently impose Christianity on the world, that is one reason why there are much fewer christian fundamentalist. The text of the quaran does say to violently impose islam, that is why it’s much more dangerous as that is what crazy fundamentalist read.
The most important thing I’ve learned from discussions around this conflict is that about 95% of the chucklefucks involved are not equipped to discuss it and should shut the fuck up, myself included
Its really not that complicated: 2 million civilians can’t be held accountable for a terrorist groups doings.
What do you think Israel should be doing?
I keep seeing this question and I’m in disbelief anyone is actually parroting this in good faith.
Not genocide? Can they not do genocide? There are a million different options to combat terrorism but right wing governments only know how to send in shock troops into civilian populations. Just because these assholes are assholes doesn’t mean this is the only option.
So hamas’ should just get a free pass?
They were warned to go to the South and most.of them did. Why doesn’t Egypt let in the gazans?
Then they were bombed along the way, couldn’t take shelter in the south and had to go back.
They were afraid of bombing on the route to safety so they returned to continued bombing.
Makes sense.
It’s not a wall of bombs on the border and you’re at risk either way.
Preface: I do not know enough of this subject or conflict to speak authoritatively.
If they were told to leave their homes and take a certain path to avoid being bombed, trusted that advice but were bombed on the “safe” path anyway by the very people who told them they would be safe if they took said path, why should they continue to trust whoever told them that?
Furthermore, if there were bombs dropping on and/or around you no matter what you did or who you listened to, simply for existing in the wrong place and at no fault of your own, wouldn’t you rather at least be in the “comfort” of your own home?
How do you know this? Is it from the say people who said their was a hospital bombing ? They lie about everything. I’m not saying I know for sure but I am skeptical. It is possible some people were bombed but there are many many people who evacuated to the South
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes
This is a report relying pal reporting, after the hospital thing I will definitely not take it at face value, and none the less they started a war.
This is not disputed. Why is the default assumption that Palestinians are lying and Israelis are not?
Everyone needs to take a step back and look at their own biases on this issue
Because pals always lie, because all these Arab countries are propaganda regimes. They had hamas spokespeople on CNN and BBC saying things like civilians are were not targeted on 10/7. They tell the most ridiculous lies. Do you you also think North Korea are not liars, do you Believe the North Korean dictator for 18 holes in one at golf?
Great job on stereotyping an entire population of peoples as liars. 👍
And downplaying the loss of innocent lives to boot.
It is “possible” that some were bombed? I guess as long as only some innocent people were bombed everything is ok. After all “many many” were safely uprooted from their homes and evacuated south. Hooray…
I doubt this will sink in but I have to try. There have definitely been innocent lives lost from both sides of this conflict and every one of them is a tragedy. I’m not advocating for either side here because everyone involved in the loss of innocent lives sucks. I don’t have a magical solution either so don’t bother asking. Innocent people have already, and will continue to die in this conflict. Don’t try to make it seem like innocent casualties aren’t a big deal.
Why doesn’t Israel let in the Gazans?
Because they have sworn to kill them , they’ve launched numerous attacks… Do you actually think the Israelis should just trust them😂
What about the children? Do the babies have knives hidden in their blankies?
Reading all these comments really shows how many people see Palestinians as subhuman.
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sca_esv=577385484&q=hakas+toddler+suicide+bomber&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-59P0i5iCAxXFH0QIHYfzCKoQ0pQJegQICxAB&biw=432&bih=836&dpr=2.5#imgrc=X1wazPfCQMLzkM
This is from 2002 and the source is the Israeli army. I’m exhausted of you assholes.
It’s a good thing they’re very clearly not being held accountable, then.
They are. 2000 dead kids in the last 20 days are saying that Israel holds the whole of Gaza accountable.
First of all who knows the number and who knows how many are kids vs terrorists, but Hamas wants the kids to die, they tell them not to leave.
Maybe they should stop bombing, so we can determine the number?
Hamas cannot start a war and then one sidedely ask for end of a war. To end a war both sides have to agree to end it.
Obviously 🙄
Should not stop bombing until Hamas is destroyed
How will we know if we can’t count them?
For started when they stop firing rockets
No it doesn’t because that number would be vastly higher if they were. Do you think Israel couldn’t mow down Gazans en masse if that was their intent?
This is why calling Israel’s actions “genocide” is so fuckin dumb.
So 2000 dead kids is business as usual for Israel? Got it. This is why the world is waking up. The genocidal regime will soon come to an end.
Perhaps Hamas should focus on saving the civilians instead of firing rockets?
Yes Hamas’s genocidal regime has weeks left, at most.
They are mowing them down en masse though. The reason more haven’t been killed is because they have shelters and tunnels to protect from the strikes. They have leveled whole villages, apartment towers holding hundreds of people, and struck routes specifically designated by the IDF as safe avenues for people to escape. The number killed is likely much higher than the reports we have seen, like after an earthquake or other disasters there are hundreds of people labeled ‘missing’ until they are more certain they are deceased.
No they are not
It’s almost certainly lower, because Hamas as already been caught lying. However, nickel and diming it seems ghoulish
This is a wholesale misrepresentation of the facts
Edit: if you’re wondering who is randomly shooting missiles at civilians and mowing people down en masse, surprise! it’s Hamas
https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1717359090576322586?t=0hFX4WZF2N87IJdVEsMYQQ&s=19
And they do it while stealing from the Palestinian people they’re supposed to provide for
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099
Alright, now you’re fucking pissing me off.
Sorry that reality upsets you.
Israel should remember how close it came to.destruction in prior war.
Genocide has consequence and Israel is not above them.
Yeah, Israel was attacked and came close to losing. Israel avoids genocide by killing the terrorists, not capitulating to them
Eternal war cannot bring peace
If someone ever stacks up Skulls in Tel Aviv, remember that Israel had a chance to pursue peace.
Hamas has vowed for eternal war, they are fascists who say they will not accept Israel existence in any capacity. They start wars make all these threats and then when they die they go ‘oh look at the children’. A person with morals and strong intellect.can see they of course.these evil people will lie and flail in every disingenuous way. Truly disgusting people, threaten genocide all die and cry about any steps taken against them. The other Arab countries are much more severe with dissidents, they understand the mentality better
A) Hamas isn’t going to destroy Israel, ever
B) Israel isn’t committing genocide. If they were honestly attempting genocide right now, they’d provably be so laughably bad at it that no one should fear it
I didn’t say Hamas.
You’re welcome to keep thinking that Israel is invulnerable.
But if they stay on this path, well.
What I’m saying is they better hope Merkava doesn’t become obsolete or high risk on the very near future.
Hezbollah and Iran are NOT Hamas.
And Fate does not protect them.
Fate doesn’t need to protect them. Multiple US carrier groups are.
Don’t read too much history do ya?
Yes the guy explaining history is the one ignorant of it.
That’s how things work.
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Lmao do you still think Israel bombed that hospital?
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“Why believe independent studies and international media when I can believe a literal terrorist organization”
Do you, man.
Oh fun fact:
https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1717909792851677399?t=bq9hglHmBpmwnmDUkBjZ8w&s=19
… An actual war crime!
Oh and why do you like the people starving the Gazans?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099
There’s just so much to share https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b1xzpqdmt
“…inside and outside of Palestine” in case you thought this was just about Israel/Palestine and not about genocide against Jews. Keep in mind these people think all of Israel is Palestine.
These are bad people and you’re dumb for supporting them.
Don’t read the news much do ya?
So you would do nothing and let terrorists get away with it
There’s a very wide range of options between “doing nothing” and “intentionally bombing civilians”
They’re not intentionally bombing civilians, you are repeating about. Hamas’ attacks civilians and hides behind civilians
They warned them ahead of time, which is the correct way to do war. Can’t be intentionally targeting civilians if you tell everyone where you strike
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-attacking-south-gaza-after-telling-people-go-there-2023-10-25/
well they also are bombing the places that they told the civilians to go for safety, that kinda seems like intentionally targeting civilians to me
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You can if you then strike everywhere.
I also don’t believe they do it consistently.
If someone argument is: they warn them, even though there are pictures of convey leaving an area getting bombed, or death numbers, in non hamas areas, west bank, has sky rocketed, you can tell they don’t care about human dying, they just want to win an argument over the internet.
Not to mention it’s still pretty fucking shitty bombing their homes, even if they were making every effort to ensure they don’t die in the process.
Imagine receiving a flyer that said “get out before we level this building tonight”.
Imagine not receiving a flyer, just being killed by a rocket launched by Hamas without warning
They bomb where there are terrorists and there are definitely terrorists in the west bank, they hide behind civilians for propaganda and safety. Civilians will definitely get killed, it’s a war and this happens in every war
West Bank, the famously terrorist-free area
Nope. Bombing civilian infrastructure is a war crime.
Not if there are enemy combatants in those places. You can’t launch missiles from a hospital and expect the enemy not to strike at your missile stockpile
How many innocent people can I murder along with the terrorist, before I’M the terrorist?
1?
10?
10,000?
Or do I need the full 6,000,000?
If terrorists are shooting missiles at you, you have the right to respond and shoot missiles back. If you warned the civilians and not all of them left, that’s a situation out of your control. Do you have an alternate solution?
“imma let a nuclear bomb explode in New York in 1 hour, yall need to leave.” There, properly warned. Damn this is easy isn’t it?
“Gazans! We are going to strike Gaza! Now you’re warned, eat shit and die”
So long as Israel continues to remain in that range, you support them, full-bore yeah?
The answer isn’t to indiscriminately just level entire neighborhoods.
I agree, but even a surgical operation would cause civilian deaths. You can’t deny that there would be costs to civilians
Yeah, why bother trying to minimize civilian casualties, especially if it sounds like work.
They don’t do a great job of it, but when has anyone else prevented all civilian casualties in a war? It doesn’t mean they don’t have the right to strike at Hamas
That’s right that they don’t do a great job at that as they kill over 20 times more Palestinians than Hamas kills Israeli. They just don’t care at all.
That’s such a dumb argument, Hamas would LOVE to kill more civilians in fact they’d like to kill all the Jewish people in Israel. Israel could very easily kill everyone in Gaza but instead they’re building complex defensive systems and using incredibly expensive systems to try and limit civilian casualties.
You can’t just go on which number is bigger.
Source: Hamas
Israel could start with restoring the internationally recognised borders. That’s one war crime down.
By internationally recognized you mean recognized by the Muslim community.
Up until 1967 Egypt controlled gaza and Jordan the west bank and there was no talk of peace, the line has always been there can be no state of Israel in any form. Within the last 20 years pals have been offered states on the 1967 borders and refused. The Oslo accords which included incremental steps to peace led to nothing but terrorism, all the aid pals receive they use for terrorism. They have explicitly unanimously said for decades that they will fight Israel to the death and have not made any offers or concessions to peace and you want to just these Islamic fundamentalist to behave if they let them into Israel? Do you know the history of Lebanon. You are native if you think you can trust hamas’, ISIS… Did you not see hamas on TV saying they didn’t target civilians in their attacks?
Bruh there is literally a UN resolution calling for Israel’s retreat to 1967 borders.
The UN is not the arbitrator of morality.
Before 1967 the arabs refused to accept the state of Israel and launched a war to destroy it in 1967 so they lost the land. The land is not held for them in perpetuity to attack and attack… If they want peace they have to give in peace, if they attack them they should be attacked, it is simple.
No one should be kept in prison but you keep a murderer in prison because of what they’ve done.
At this point you will say, well what about what Israel did… And I promise you if you go back pals have instigated every conflict. They are unwilling to live in peace with non Muslim, they follow a fascist Islamic ideology and are explicit about it. The jews , who are the natives of the land, have repeatedly shown a willingness to live in peace with arabs, with a pal state and with arabs in the Jewish state. During the Oslo peace negotiations they talked about putting Arab areae of Israel under the PLO and the Israeli arabs absolutely refused, Arabs living in Israel have better quality of life than anywhere in the Arab world, Arab countries are corrupt theocracies, Israel is a liberal democracy , this is why the fascist Muslims hate it, this is what they are talking about when they say ‘european colonialsim’, that it’s not a fascist Muslim theocracy
So since you’re a massive moron I don’t plan to engage with you much longer, but lemme say this: Netenyahu’s election platform is and has been for thirty years not making peace with Palestinians. He’s actively sabotaged the Palestinian peace movement over and over to prevent it from happening.
And good job changing the goalposts.
Yeah he won because before him you had leftist prime ministers who offered everything to the pals, have them more autonomy and it only resulted in more terrorism. The pals will fight to the death no matter what, they say so explicitly, they don’t want freedom or prosperity they are Islamic fascist and want to destroy Israel , that’s it. If they wanted peace and prosperity they’ve already had every opportunity
The UN proposed partition in 1947, Palestinians refused.
The US proposed a two state solution in 1993, Palestinians refused
What the fuck? What the actual fuck?
1947 is its own mess, but it was Israel (specifically Netenyahu) who called off the Oslo accords. Where the fuck did you find that Palestinians refused a two state solution in 1993?
The Palestinians suspended the talks and never made a counter offer. After that Hamas etc sent suicide bombers and an Israeli terrorist machine gunned a mosque and there’s never been a chance of peace since
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1993-2000/oslo
Do you believe those are the only two options?
What is the alternative?
I can think of a few:
Special forces operations meticulously planned to clear out the tunnels, with both less lethal options and lethal options depending on whether resistance is armed or not.
Using precision munitions on verified targets instead of levelling entire blocks
Not turning off electricity to children’s hospitals
Not starving people
Even if you fully believe that Hamas should be and can be ripped out root and stem, cutting off electricity and food is completely inexcusable.
I never said cutting off electricity and food is necessary. I agree that precision strikes (with prior notification to civilians) are the preferred way to destroy military targets, but I also think Israel has the right to go in and remove Hamas permanently. This would also cause civilian casualties, but Hamas has shown it’s not an organization that can be allowed to exist
Yep, people like to look and see black and white, but situation is very complex.
Is a roller coaster when you start learning more about it, but it followed:
Oh the fuck this is so complex, and the worst thing is there isn’t any way solution in sight because at least one side doesn’t want any compromise.
I saw comment and I believe it is most accurate of this situation. There won’t be a peace until Palestinians will start loving their children more than they hate Jews.
Again, I don’t support what Israeli government is doing, they do kill innocent people in the process, but Palestinians aren’t exactly greatest neighbors either. The countries that in the past accepted them as refugees ended up having civil wars started by them.
the Jewish Diaspora started with the Romans. The Arabs have historically treated Jews better than Christians.
You misinformation only helps to muddy the waters.
Maybe better than Europeans but not ‘well’ there have been discriminatory laws in many Muslim countries over the years and most Muslim countries have ethnically cleaned their countries of Jews, Jewish communities in Iraq, syria etc… Pre date islam.
And of course under ottoman rule their were laws against Jews immigrating to palestine
And Iran (even though not Arab) is the only country outside Israel to reverse reserve a seat in parliament specifically for a Jewish representative.
You mean reserve?
Oops!! Yes, I do.
This is misinformation. Even Hamas said they want a two-state solution. Fucking Hamas. Meanwhile Israel… Well you can look up Netenyahu’s position on the conflict yourself.
Yes, the Israeli government.
Tbf, aside from lobbing missile into other country, Hamas has to bear some blame here. If they would recognize Israel as a country, the conflict will likely turn its tide. That is the compromise they wouldn’t take.
I’m not sure how that would happen. There have been two ceasefires with Hamas that fell apart because Israel didn’t lift the blockade as promised, even as Hamas followed it for months on end.
We already know Netenyahu’s position on Palestine; he’s not exactly trying to hide it, and the West Bank is currently being colonized (up to and including pogroms) by Israel so it’s not like peace is working either.
You just don’t put out statements calling their country illegitimate - it’s not rocket science.
And while we’re on the subject of rocket science, stop fucking launching rockets at Israeli civilians
No one is defending Hamas shooting rockets at Israel, who has an Iron Dome to protect them anyway.
The PLO recognized Israel. What was the result?
Are you old enough to remember the Olso accords and the peace process? Pals have been offered states numerous times, they don’t want it , they want to fight, every resource they use for terror. Israel is just supposed to make concessions until the pals come around to peace ? They will not.
You don’t understand the mindset, if you lived in any Muslim country particularly in the Midwest you would find things very difficult, particularly if you are a women, or gay, or a non Muslim. They will kill a woman who doesn’t wear her scarf, forget about talking to men… these people are fascist in a way that you do not understand
Because by then all the ball will be on Netanyahu’s court. When Hamas announce their new charter, US made it clear that if it doesn’t include recognizing Israel as a country then they will not have a dialog. Of course, at that time there’s Trump so it won’t work regardless, and now it’s too late.
It’s been for a long time now. Netenyahu and his ilk have made it very clear they don’t want a Palestinian state. Like they’re turning it into an election platform. The PLO recognized Israel in preparation for the Oslo Accords, and what happened? What’s the state of the PNA now?
Again, this presupposes that every single person living in Gaza deserves to pay for the crimes of Hamas.
You can look up the hamas charter, they advocate genocide.
You are ignorant of history, pals have been offered statehood numerous times throughout the years and their position has always been there can be no Jewish presence in Israel.
The PLO dropped that position in the 80s, and even Hamas dropped it sometime in the 2000s/2010s. You’re the one who’s ignorant of history. And they’re not pals, they’re Palestinians.
No hamas has not https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
And regardless of what they say their actions speak louder than words and they lie about absolutely everything, how naive.couod you be? Didn’t you see hamas on cnn this week saying things like they did not target civilians on 10/7, they are decrepit.
Their actions also include two permanent ceasefires in 2008 and 2012 that Israel didn’t follow.
The Israeli government offered to create the first Palestinian country in human history and Hamas counter-offered with the destruction of Israel.
Which offer, exactly?
They’ve done it like 3 or 4 times, but a quick Google search will provide many details
Yes, I’m asking which one so I can explain in detail why what you said up there makes no sense.
Oh well then this is a stupid discussion.
I’m not interested in your alternate take on history.
You might want to continue to learn about the issue, as your comment is not exactly an even analysis. It seems more like a narrative wrapped up in surface-level analysis.
Wow, I’m amazed someone has taken such a poor journey.
It’s not complex at all. Palestinians have been ejected from their homes time and again by the State of Israel. Now they’ve been forced out of the West Bank and are all in Gaza, an open air prison. Hamas, a terrorist group, attacks Israel. Israel indiscriminately starts bombing Gaza where half of the inmates are children. Predictably, loads of civilians and children die.
People with a soul are on the side of the innocent civilians being murdered in an open air prison they were forced into by the apartheid Israeli government. It’s really that simple.
It was Egypt that turned Gaza into a prison in '48… And I don’t think Israel ever forced anyone from the WB to go live in Gaza? It seems it’s not really that simple
The simple reality is that islam is a fascist religion and are willing to live in peace with a Jewish state of any borders, look up the 1948 UN partition, whereas Israel has made numerous offers and concessions to peace over the year.
I promise you any thing you say for why pals are justified in their actions because of their oppression is a distortion of history, that pals have started every single conflict.
Unless your position is that the quaran was revealed to Mohamed by God and Hamas has interpreted correctly to say that there can only be Muslim nations in the world then you are supporting fascist idiotic terrorists.
Jews are the natives of the land, you can see there is a mosque built on the Jewish temple, Islam is the colonizer, islam is intolerant, and it’s not just in Israel, it’s in many countries
Yeah, because the Tanakh is so benevolent and all iterations of it are peaceful. Fuck this Sam Harris justification for Islamophobia. All these religions can be fascist, all these religions can be peaceful.
Followers of Islam once carried on the spirit of enlightenment and philosophy while Christians were in the depths of their dark ages. They maintained the knowledge that came from across the old world, while making essential contributions to important things like: The scientific method, social science as a field, economics, culture, and mathematics.
Where the fuck do you think Arabic numerals like 1, 9, or 0 came from? Europe? No. They were invented in India and spread through the world by Islamic cultures and states. Everyone on earth uses these numerals, a universal human language, all thanks to the Islamic world.
So fuck your assertions that Islam is a uniquely terrible religion. If Islam is a religion that can’t exist in a peaceful world, no religion can exist in a peaceful world. How can a religion that helped everyone speak the same language, that has historically existed at the crossroads between Europe, Asia, and Africa, be incompatible with other cultures? It’s a non factor in the discussion of Palestine and Israel.
I’ve never seen a defense of terrorism by way of math before.
Interesting approach. Not successful though.
And I’ve seen your approach of equating opposition to Israel killing innocents with endorsement of Hamas way, way too many times.
It’s a tired approach, but it is often successful.
I want Hamas to stop existing, full stop. However, I don’t think Isreal gets any closer to destroying Hamas using their current strategy. The only way it could work is if they kill all Palestinians, which is not at all acceptable.
The israelis who have been victimized by terror for decades seem to have given up caring what you think of their approach. If Palestinians continue to defend and cooperate with Hamas, they will absolutely be putting themselves at risk - they are making themselves combatants by the Geneva convention.
Not all Palestinians are Hamas, no one is saying that. Until the Palestinians start putting a divide between who’s supporting Hamas (thousands of people cheering over a raped and brutalized body of a hostage? That’s supporting Hamas just so we’re clear) and who’s not they’re all at risk. Running to the roof of a building as a human shield, putting yourself intentionally at risk after being warned? Also supporting Hamas.
Israelis nor Palestinians will be safe until Hamas has been removed from their hold on the strip. That’s the reality that the western world understands and has shown support for.
It is true that Isreal has ultimate say over what they do. That said, many Israelis have always opposed their country’s treatment of Palestinians. Many Palestinians with influence abroad condemn Hamas, but people see their concern for innocent civilians and filter out their condemnation of Hamas. There are Palestinians making the divide, but y’all refuse to listen to them or other people that stand by them.
There are dumbasses who support Hamas, but most people that oppose Isreal’s campaign don’t. The Harvard students who’ve been harassed for a statement they made copied most of their statement from an Israeli newspaper. They did not defend Hamas. The Jewish activists who sat in at the US Capitol did not defend Hamas, but people claimed they did. Even if you’re a Jewish Israeli, you can’t even critique Isreal’s response without people claiming you love Hamas. It’s some McCarthyism shit, and you’re perpetuating it.
This all comes back to my point that Israel’s strategy won’t work. I want Hamas destroyed, but I recognize that the IDF has failed to weaken Hamas for decades, and cannot be trusted to do it now. In fact, their current warpath is exactly what Hamas wants them to do. Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians, they only want to rule over them. You think Hamas didn’t expect Isreal to do exactly what they’ve been doing? They wanted Isreal to act like an existential threat, because that pushes Palestinians into seeing Hamas as the only option. The biggest treat to Hamas is a more moderate Isreal. The internal Israeli resistance to Netanyahu was the real threat to Hamas’ power, as Bibi has long worked to weaken the PLO more than Hamas.
ISIS and hamas are not enlightened islam, a religion follows it’s interpretation and what ISIS and Hamas do is blasphemy. Islam is not from God, it may have worked in the middle ages but now people who are reading it are insane fundamentalist. There are peaceful Muslims but not the mullahs in Iran, or ISIS or Hamas. Yes the bible says to kill people who violate the sabbath but functionally speaking no one is killed for violating the sabbath and it was not even interpreted that way in biblical times. The war musings of the quaran are interpreted this way by Muslims around the world.
Even if there are more fundamentalist Muslims today than fundamentalist Christians, that does not mean the entire religion cannot exist in a peaceful world. Certain sects and interpretations might be unacceptable, but as long as there is a single Muslim that works towards peace and coexistence, a single peaceful interpretation of the Quran, you can’t say we should not tolerate Islam. This absolutism is evil, stupid, and you should feel bad for falling into bigotry. Just make a distinction between theocratic fascists and religious people. Stop equating the two.
There are way more fundamentalist Muslims and further more fundamentalist Christians are not dangerous, the religion of the New testament is love and evangelism. The Spanish inquisition was not based on anything from the bible.
In islam it is not a far fetched interpretation to say that the world should be violently conquered in the name of islam, they follows from a simple reading and the leaders of many Arab governments such as Iran follow it. Half of Iran hates this fundamentalist interpretation but the other half doesn’t and they are dangerous. And throughout the Muslim world - the 911 hijackers, ISIS, Hamas there are these extremists. Yes it is possible to have a peaceful islam they coexists but it’s also possible that islamic fascism will be predominate and it is dangerous and it should be fought
You must have a very strange definition of Christian fundamentalism, because the people I would describe as fundamentalists are absolutely a threat. You also seem to think that people don’t use Bible passages to justify basically anything while still claiming only their interpretation is valid. These people think of themselves as having the actual, literal interpretation of the Bible.
What pisses me off the most is that fascist Christians are the biggest threat to me personally. They’re the people calling for people like me to be eradicated from public life or straight up killed. I’m not over here arguing that we should do the same thing to Christians that you endorse against Muslims.
Even if the Bible had no passages encouraging fucked up behavior, the existence of Christian fascists shows that the content of the religious text does not prevent a religion from fueling fascism.
So what you are gay or trans? Show me the worst thing a Christian fascist has done. In gaza you would be killed, it would be endorsed by the government, it is routine they they kill gays, you know that right ?
In Christianity there are a wide range of interpretations but the text of the bible does not say to violently impose Christianity on the world, that is one reason why there are much fewer christian fundamentalist. The text of the quaran does say to violently impose islam, that is why it’s much more dangerous as that is what crazy fundamentalist read.
You should look at the Hasbara to help with your discourse.
Holy fuck was this information and reasoning ordained to you by some invisible, omnipotent, and master-of-paradoxes being by any chanc e?
I am triggered by your chanc e. Please kindly fix the typo. 👻