- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
I don’t like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war”. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump’s campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I’ll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
You must log in or register to comment.
Also, trump appointed 3 supreme court justices, who will be there FOR LIFE.
Assassinate'em, you say?No, just kidding.
I’m just someone watching from Europe, getting a little concerned 😔
Same here. Watching from Europe, and going “hmm, I think we had a few very bloody revolutions to solve these kinds of problems”
Thanks to leftists who wouldn’t vote
Do I hate the two party system? Yes. Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden’s party? Yes. Do I hate the fact that Democrats are always dismissive of liberal ideas and often act like complete jackasses and can’t admit that when Obama was running there were a ton of Clinton supporters that didn’t vote for Obama in a blatant act of pure hypocrisy? Yes.
Do I fucking hate Nazis and Fascist? Fuck yes.
Hence why even if I don’t like the Democrat running, I’ll vote for them and honestly, Biden isn’t too sucktastic. Except for kyrsten sinema, she can fuck right the hell off forever.
I hate how so many critics talk about they when criticising a political party. Get involved. Run for local office, become a part of the inside of the party. How can Democrats ever represent younger leftists, when so few of the younger leftists let their voice be heard outside of anonymous forums?
Yeah lemme get like $2,000,000 so I can go run for office.
All so a bunch of white Boomers can show up and vote against you for being “too radical”.
Campaigns don’t tend to be self-funded.
Hey are you involved in your political party? Have you run for local office?
You aren’t also being a hypocrite by telling other people to get involved while not doing it yourself right?
Do I hate everything going on in this country? Yes. Do I still keep voting to have the same shit happen over and over? Yes.
I mean if you want to vote in a bunch of fucking Nazis and fascists just for some change , well feel fucking free to do so, I’m just going to consider you stupid and a Nazi.
Do I hate the fact that centrists like Joe Liberman who literally killed universal healthcare in the US are revered and embraced by Biden’s party?
Joe Biden explicitly said he would veto any legislation involving universal healthcare. You oppose universal healthcare, but you’re hiding behind the spectre of “centrists”.
And again, as a minority in America, I would take Biden over a Nazi any day. Doesn’t mean I love him to death and would take him into my arms and give him a reach around but fuck anyone who would vote for a Nazi.
democrats are fascist.
not literally everything that’s bad is fascist
Okay they Billy Madison.
this doesnt change the truth of what i said
Sure. Very nice truthiness there Billy.
this is an appeal to ridicule. it is not a rebuttal
The party needs to start trying to win apathetic voters over if they’re as terrified as they claim to be of trump, not just spout vague platitudes, push out the most bare bones minimum viable policy possible and then shrug when it gets dismembered in committee.
Indeed, you’ve spelled it out plainly: there is no vote option to end the U.S. funding of Israel’s genocide in Gaza.
I can either make a vote that won’t end it, or I can make a vote that won’t end it (and may actually make it worse, as you alluded) and will also lead to significant negative consequences for many groups of people here.
If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
Not just trans, but homosexual, non-white, non-religious, women.
Anyone that isn’t voting for Biden is helping someone get into office that will implement wildly homophobic and transphobic policies. People in this thread are really showing their cards.
Buddy, friend, gamer. It’s march. Can you bring this out in six months? There is no reason to fill everyone’s feed up like this and sow political division on the left over seven months before it’s relevant.
Plus, the pressure looks like it’s working, so a vote for Biden might be a lot more palatable then. A lot of your work might get done automatically
Anyone who doesn’t vote immediately loses the right to complain for the next 4 years.
Don’t like it? Should’ve done your duty and put in a vote.
Fuck you, fence sitters
Liberals would rather blame leftists than actually fight fascism.
So many dumb Americans here not voting. Cutting off your legs so you can hold the moral high ground. Moronic.
Step 1: defeat Trump Step 2: help reshape Democratic party
Because the fact is, if we don’t do step 1 first, we’ll have our work cut out for us the next four or more years just being back in ‘The Resistance’. Which you know isn’t going to make the Dems more liberal, it’s going to pull them to the right as more dissatisfied Trump voters finally peel off.
On the other hand, the more resounding of a defeat we can dish out to the GQP and MAGA, the easier it will be to send them into the wilderness to regroup politically so we can focus all of our energies on the Democratic party.
We defeated Trump in 2020. Nothing changed and Biden spent his entire term catering to liberals and moderates.
And republicans and fascists and corporations and Wall Street… hmmm but he did almost cancel a lot of student debt, but actual trying to cancel most people’s student debt was “too high”. No cracking down on predatory lending or anything. Plenty of other countries have free college, but its just too damn hard in the worlds richest country, you know jack.
Earn the vote Biden.
He can’t do it because Congress is too divided because you didn’t fucking vote.
Who didn’t vote? What senate races were reasonably within reach that people didn’t show up for? Same question for the house.
Me when I don’t understand what the house and senate are.
Sorry if I am missing your point - did you think he’d cater to conservatives?
Lol! I expected him to make material compromises with the millions of progressives and leftists who held their nose and voted for him. The fact that you seem completely unaware of these factions Democrats depend on to win elections is just… a perfect example of how out of touch liberal and moderate voters are. They can’t win elections without our votes. They need to start acting like it.
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
And while we should absolutely hold his feet to the fire to pull him further left, saying “earn my vote or else” with the ‘or else’ being Trump, is not a very practical threat. Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but
I’m not trying to tell you what to call yourself but if you spend all your time and energy arguing against leftists instead of moderates and liberals what exactly makes you left? Call yourself whatever you like but your actions are indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal.
I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
🙄Oh please, do tell me what material leftist victory was made by Biden. A bunch of corporate handouts? Not leftist. Passing the IRA? That was the BBB stripped of everything leftists and progressives were excited about. Maybe you’re so delusional you think blocking a rail strike is a leftist victory. Or maybe you think shipping weapons to a country committing genocide is some kind of leftist victory. Or raising the defense budget. Or forcing federal workers back to the office. Or setting Yellen and Powell on a war path against American workers.
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
The stuff I care about was already held back four years with Biden.
Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
Yeah I’ve heard this plenty. You realize this cuts both ways right? Moderate and liberal voters refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives is every bit the same. Why are you trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard?
I’m arguing with other leftists because I have hope that I can help them make the right choice strategically while countering the rampant rightwing disinfo which like it or not, that’s what you’re parroting.
Again, you’re indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal. You talk like one, you act like one, you vote like one. Regardless of what you believe you’re not doing anything that would accomplish anything we’re fighting for.
Fuck that, pass electoral reform so people can vote 3rd party with no spoiler effect and leave these dinosaur political parties in the past where they belong.
Do you think it’ll be easier or harder to get electoral reform passed if Trump is elected?
I think that the threat of losing to trump is the most powerful leverage progressives and leftists have at getting actual reformation of the party, and this election is the democrats race to lose.
So right now everyone who is pissed at Biden or the democrats, should be letting their anger known and be as loud as possible about it
Agreed.
Either moderate and liberal voters along with establishment Democrats and Biden make a big pivot or this will go down in history as a lesson: do not fuck with labor.
Except step one is repeated every. damn. time.
Its never time to reshape the Democratic Party. If the democrats win, it will be too early to fix the Democratic Party for millions of reasons. And four years pass and every campaign promise is ignored, and all of a sudden it’s back to 1. Beat the new threat to “democracy” 2. Fix the Democratic Party… ad nauseam forever.
It’s never too early to help shape the Democratic party, absolutely do it now. But it’s a long process and if you can’t see how it has changed in the last 20 years already I don’t know what to tell you. And beating Trump is priority #1 if we’re going to continue on that path.
We can’t do that if people don’t vote actual leftist in the primaries because “commies won’t win the general”.
Bc boomers have strangeholded our govt for decades. Its convenient that now that theyre dying off this is the shit we get to try and elect the actual genocidal maniac and not the dinosaur keeping to the same foreign policy the US has kept for 70 yrs in order to keep our other allies from thinking we will abandon them the way we did the Kurds or Ukraine.
f there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
Hey hi, it’s me, your trans friend. And you need to put this energy towards protesting Biden instead of leftists. I honestly feel like you are low key getting trolled and missing the point?
Like, seriously, we all know “shithole countries” Trump would be worse on every single issue, including and especially Gaza. But it’s six months till the election, PLENTLY of time for a course change by Biden. Absolutely a second Trump term scares the 💩 out of me. So i appreciate where you are coming from, but until it’s November, I think pressing Dems and trusting leftists to do whats right day of is the most good y’all can do.
trusting leftists to do whats right
i can’t trust leftists because leftists are stupid. look how they lost italy, the leftists splintered and refused to work together because of petty shit which allowed the right including literal fascists to take over the government. this is the same type of dumb stuff that happens everywhere with leftists, because of their “holier than thou” attitude.
i will not leave the election’s outcome in the leftists’ hands because they always fuck it up when that’s the case. they always refuse to cooperate with the enemies of their enemy because they don’t see them as left enough, despite it being the only option to not have their long-term goals permanently blocked off, and the country always devolves into diet fascism afterwards. it has lost us many nations throughout history, so no thanks.
This will be the most important election in the history of the united states. You have two choices, Dictator, or Democracy. A no vote is a vote AGAINST Democracy.
I hear this every single election.
Dems - “democracy is at stake! THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN YOUR LIFE”
Me - *Holds nose and votes for the lesser evil"
Dems - “thanks guys that was close” Proceeds to sit around with a thumb in their collective asshole for 4 years.
…
Dems - “Democracy is at stake! REALLY guys - THIS is the most important election ever!”
It’s fucking exhausting. If the Dems really wanted people to come out and vote, they would spend less time begging for our votes, and more time representing our collective interests.
They don’t sit around at all! They are out there working hard. Suckling the teet of major donors. Pretending they oppose the Republican party.
I hear this every single election.
-
Because as we move into the future with a larger population and worse environmental destruction, the stakes become greater.
-
Because we’ve been on the verge of losing our democracy for a couple decades now. I’m almost 50, we’ve been on the verge since the presidency was taken from Al Gore. It was not this way before that in my lifetime.
You think one election is going to take a nation on the brink to being in safe harbors? This is a battle for democracy that occurs over multiple elections, why is that so hard to understand? You can only repeat what your friends say?
Biden refused to face fascism head on during his entire term. Instead he decided to focus entirely on pleasing moderates and liberals and burning progressives and leftists at every opportunity. This is Biden’s fault.
Ya, so to punish Biden lets allow an actual fascist to take power and live under that for the rest of our lives. Genius.
If you focused all this energy you’re using to fight your fellow working class Americans against pro-corporate trash candidates and the people who vote for them we’d be in a much better position right now.
Oh please, this is everyone’s fault, one man doesn’t rule alone. We are failing at every level, in every state, in every county, in every city, in nearly every household. As long as people are too comfortable and lazy to take action every day that is NOT election day, election day will continue to be disappointing.
I agree the presidency isn’t all that matters. But it does acutely demonstrate the problem. White boomers dominate the party and prevent any legitimate efforts from being made. If you want to point fingers at the household level start with white boomers.
-
I hear this every single election.
Yeah, weird, it’s almost like we’ve been on a slow march towards fascism for decades and as republicans get more and more radicalised they vote for worse and worse candidates as their nominee every election… or something.
we’ve been on a slow march towards fascism for decades
Yes. Including the last three years. See the problem?
Yes?? Idk what point you’re trying to make here.
Procorporate Democrats like Biden cannot save us from fascism.
Neither can actual fascists, at least one is a slower process. What matters is what we do with the time in between elections. I’ll happily vote for a moderate wet fart like Biden so I have 4 more years to educate, 4 more years to inch policy my direction at the local level, 4 more years to work with activists in my community, 4 more years to build bridges of understanding with people I disagree with in the hope for a better future. Giving in to accelerationists just takes away those 4 years entirely, ending any hope for that better future. Soon 70% of these fascists will die of old age, and then maybe we can translate our action and resistance into policy.
at least one is a slower process
Sounds like you’re acknowledging the choice is between fascism now or fascism later yes?
Soon 70% of these fascists will die of old age, and then maybe we can translate our action and resistance into policy.
That’s not what will happen. The moment progressives and leftists begin dominating primaries moderates and liberals will stop showing up in general elections. You’ll have the same problem we have today. If moderates and liberals actually value democracy they need to start being open to making material compromises with progressives and leftists. If they won’t now, they won’t ever and if they won’t ever it’s already over.
Focus your anger at liberals and moderates.
You’d think if they really believed their own bs that democracy was at stake, they would do everything to court votes in swing states, such as, idk, the enormous Arab population in Michigan? Biden clearly prioritizes dead Gazan babies over “democracy.”
Right? Why isn’t Biden standing in front of a podium begging leftists and progressives to save him? Is his pride worth more than democracy?
Every fucking election in my lifetime has been “the most important in history”
You all have cried wolf too many times. If you get eaten, it’s liberals fault.
Aye Komrad
If it’s so important then why isn’t Biden doing everything he can to compromise with leftists and progressives? Dude should be standing at a podium begging us like “Please! I’m sorry I blocked the rail strike I won’t do it again. Federal workers can continue working remotely. I won’t raise the defense budget again. I will fight to block weapon shipments to Israel. Please help me.”
Or is this democracy not worth that to him?
Lol, troll.
I’m really not. The fact that it’s a legitimate question under these circumstances shows just how pathetic this whole situation is. As Jon Stewart said, if the enemy is at the gates why isn’t Biden taking it seriously?
Election of 1860: am i joke to u?
There won’t be another election if tRump wins. Komrad
Does Biden know that?
People need to understand that it’s possible to vote against genocide.
No, it doesn’t matter that he’s an active participant in the apparatus that’s creating the genocide, because if he’s in office there’s less genocide. Which is the important part, and pretending otherwise is sophistry. If you abstain from voting, you are increasing the likelihood of more genocide and if you discourage others from voting, you are an active participant in the overall social apparatus that is probabilistically increasing the amount of genocide.
The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes more genocide less likely, and discouraging people from voting for Biden makes more genocide more likely. Therefore, discouraging people from voting for Biden is a pro-genocide strategy and voting for Biden in battleground states is an anti-genocide strategy. I live in a solid blue state, so I reserve the right to vote third party, but I will also encourage other people to vote for Biden.
You should vote for Biden unless you live in a solid blue state, and even then it’s not a bad idea.
Edit: grammar correction
Even if you’re in a solid blue state, vote for Biden. Because you don’t know if it’s your vote that pushes your state over that line.
I think your stance on the issue is entirely reasonable.
The endgame of your utility calculation is genocidal. 30 years from now, I suspect you’ll still be blasting this “vote blue no matter who” nonsense when the choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a repub supporting 10 genocides. You’ve been anchor biased hard as fuck.
What’s your plan that makes the endgame not genocidal? Remember to make it fit reality.
You say “make it fit reality”, but why do I feel like what you really mean is “make sure it does not at all challenge US hegemony”.
If your ecocidal political project whose institutions were devised a blink ago by 30 year old slavers starts going genocidal, your project has lost the right to exist. To put it plainly, I think we all have a duty to start thinking about what dismantling the genocidal US empire would look like: reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country’s undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.
reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country’s undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.
Voting Biden doesn’t prevent you from doing this, you know. Rather, it would probably make it easier.
Let’s suppose there are going to be genocides, what’s better, 5 or 10?
Thank you for defining anchor bias in such a succinct comment.
Thanks for not answering a very simple question.
In your hypothetical 30 years in the future scenario, this would still be a “more genocide” and “less genocide” pick. We should never have genocide but there’s no way to express that in the US binary voting system, so the choice would have to be tactical.
What do you propose instead?
I’m a transhumanist; my endgame is the abolition of all hardships including involuntary death. I want as many as possible among the those alive today to experience the universe beyond the fading of the last stellar remnants. That means clawing and fighting in every way I can and know how to allow as many people alive now to continue living. That means less genocide is better than more genocide, which in turn means that the immediate goal is making a Biden victory as likely as possible as I prepare more long-term projects. The long-term projects eliminate genocide. The Short term projects mitigate genocide. More successful short term projects increases the likelihood of more successful long-term projects.
In short: it is incredibly small-minded, presumptuous, and uncharitable of you to assume that I think voting is the only part of this massive game. Fuck off.
Wow how edgy. I don’t like either candidate so I’ll protest-stay-home. As if not voting is a form of protest.
Actually I’m legitimately curious. Where did that idea come from? Where did you get the idea that voting = endorsement.
If you were stranded in the wilderness and your options were to eat bug1 or bug2, would you choose to starve to death because “well, I just don’t want people to think that I enjoy eating cockroach”. Get over yourself and your childish mindset. Choosing not to participate is still making a choice.
Maybe when the maga fanatics come for your lgbt+ friends and family you’ll think differently. Or maybe not. I don’t know you or how comfortable you are with the maga end-game.
a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide
Demanding people vote for genocide as a lesser of two evils is where we are at now.
Remember Biden isn’t actually the one doing the genocide. That’s Netanyahu and the other Israeli politicians. Let’s not delete their blame by including Biden who has been putting in /some/ effort to stop it (not enough imo, but undeniably some). And remember that even if he stopped weapons shipments the day of the invasion, it wouldn’t have changed the outcome at all.
Israel has always been days or weeks away from running out of ammunition and bombs. If shipments stop the bombings would stop. They’ve reupped and reupped and Biden even bypassed Congress to continue supplying bombs.
He’s completely enabling it. The UN would have already stepped in if we weren’t blocking anything above saying the words, “Please Stop.”
The criminal justice system recognizes this. It charges the driver, the lookout, and the trigger puller with Felony Murder.
The fuck you mean the UN would have “stepped in”?
Like you think the UN is going to send troops to stop Isreal??? Or you think that Israel will decide its going to comply with a resolution for the first time?
The criminal justice system recognizes this. It charges the driver, the lookout, and the trigger puller with Felony Murder.
Apples to orsnges. Do gun shop owners get charged with murder for selling guns to people who use them to commit murder? No ofc course not.
The UN can’t “step in” regardless, plus we let the cease fire resolution pass this time so if they could step in we’re not blocking it.
Either vote for harm reduction or watch as the former president implements a final solution.
You can vote for The guy who says Tut Tut to the genocidal madman or the guy that says, “finish the job”.
There are also other issues at play. They are both a vote for genocide but one of them would like to bring that here there and everywhere!
We need to make it personal.
Vote for Biden so I can keep my job.
As I see it, the genocide is not up for a vote since neither candidate will stop it. It’s the other issues that are up for vote.
They’ve decided to do genocide regardless of what the voters want.
It’s a sad state of affairs, but as of now what other choice is there?
Think about it for a moment: people are opposing a genocide. Do you think if Biden called for a ceasefire or ended his support for a genocidal regime it would cost him votes?
People sure acting like that is the case the way people are opposing genocide as a valid electoral issue.
So shit, right now?: Bully the everloving fuck out of Biden and anyone supporting the genocide Israel is conducting in Gaza. Fuck them and their genocide. Make it an electoral issue. See what influence can be made between now and voting day, like a properly engaged member of a political system.
Whenever I see people bemoaning the system, (which I agree is fucked, overall) I always wonder if they’ve bothered to write/call/harass legislators? Because it’s sometimes surprising how much an angry person can accomplish when they decide to be a problem.
I set up targeted harassment of state legislators on reddit and twitter and managed to get weed legalized after it died in committee in the preceding five years.
Do you think if Biden called for a ceasefire or ended his support for a genocidal regime it would cost him votes?
I mean, at this point, maybe? I’m confident while probably both very small groups, the pro-genocide Biden voters are more than the anti-genocide Trump voters. Someone who votes Republican in modern elections doesn’t seem like they would be concerned for the wellbeing of black people on the other side of the planet.
If Biden ceased supporting israel, our remaining allies would be all the more disillusioned with our fickle ass nature and our soft powers would plummet.
Guarantee you, if we had a president Sanders, 70 senators would be tripping over themselves to pass Israeli aid and overturning any of his executive orders while calling him an antisemite.
It really is something when you can put yourself into that position and trying to whip votes on this platform of all places instead of calling for a violent revolution.
Let us not forget how much Trump hates environmental regulation. He will auction off America’s treasures for whoever sticks enough money in his pocket. Biden has done a pretty decent job of maintaining the old guard mentality of preservation and conservation (as imperfect as that may be).
I wish more people cared about the environment.
As you read through these comments, note that anyone using the phrase “the liberals”, followed by some condescending remark, are voting for trump.
Or the equivalent of voting for trump, anyway. And also note that they seem very angry over the notion that ppl will vote for biden while pursuing other forms of change or at the very least advocating for them.
