Lead Lemmy Developer, Dessalines, denying the Tiananmen Square Massacre and praising the Uyghur Genocide
https://sh.itjust.works/post/8419342
Dessalines AKA “parentis_shotgun” on Reddit, is the main Lemmy dev, also the admin of lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml.
Their post and discussions on Reddit (archive as the original post must have been removed):
Please join the discussions for Lemmy.ml tankie censorship problem:
https://lemmy.world/post/16211417
And the discussions for finding/creating alternative communities on other instances:
https://lemmy.world/post/16235541
What is a tankie?
Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support acts of repression by such regimes or their allies. More specifically, the term has been applied to those who express support for one-party Marxist–Leninist socialist republics, whether contemporary or historical.
Good thing that Lemmy is an open source federation, then. It’s not like Spaz on Reddit, where one dude can ruin the whole damn thing for everyone with a few bad choices.
As a fellow communist, I was always bewildered by this urge of many tankies to prove by all means, against any evidence, that China is socialist and ultimately good.
It’s neither. China turned to markets, privatized many industries, and really did commit atrocities on Tiannamen square and in Xinjiang.
Doesn’t mean socialism as a system is dysfunctional. United States are directly responsible for insane atrocities all over the world, and we don’t need to deny that either.
We need to learn from the experience and strive for it not to happen again. Not close our eyes, scream “blah-blah-blah” and pretend it never happened.
China and the Soviet Union were responsible for acts of genocide, mass murdering/starving people, etc.
Doesn’t mean this didn’t happen in a capitalist world, and doesn’t mean we should close our eyes on that to defend the good look of the system. If anything, this does the opposite. Problems need to be solved, not ignored.
Really loving the “What does it matter if they support genocide???” commenters in here. Really showing where their priorities are.
Do you know the political views of the developers of every piece of software you use? Why is Lemmy different?
This whole lemmy tankie dev thing has been discussed ad nauseam here for the past year or so. Not sure what solutions you suggest, but if I were to filter my software by who’s an asshole dev and who’s not, that list will end up really short.
As far as the ml instance goes, I don’t agree that we should start defederating left and right with any and all undesirables, but to each their own. At least people now will be in the know, and it might take some weight off lemmy.world
I’ve only been on Lemmy a month, and this shit is already exhausting. Isn’t a main point of this whole fediverse thing that you can just block entire instances as well as users? Why is this even an ongoing topic that spans multiple communities?
Because the Lemmy user base is still relatively small, so the drama in one corner takes up a nontrivial amount of the total area. If it were the size of reddit or tiktok, you wouldn’t pay threads like these any mind.
It’s all over because it’s a pervasive problem, and it’s obviously off putting to a lot of people.
And it’s especially a problem when there are random communities peppered in your feed that you simply can’t participate in randomly, even though they may be the largest of their kind.
Ive been banned from communities I have yet to participate in, for no reason, and without any responses from mods when I ask what happened.
It’s making it so the entire platform becomes toxic unless you actively persevere through their unfair practices.
It’s important to me because I really liked Reddit back in the day, and before that the disperate forums that existed all over. I’m sure there are plenty of people who are interested in those same things, but are put off when they inevitably say something “liberal” in a meme space and are attacked for it. It’s toxic and it is counter to growth.
Not to mention how blatant an echo chamber it creates, and how naive users can be indoctrinated to misinformation without even a hint of counter discussion being allowed.
Edit: desperate to disperate
I can’t even see what instance you’re from, but your account is only a couple months old. Why not create one on a different instance?
I’ve been banned from several .ml subs, some of which are so popular they appear on All, and I didn’t know I was banned until I tried to upvote, but I’ve never participated otherwise in them, it was punitive for other comments and discussions I’ve had where I have debated politics and, propaganda, and media with mods.
I may actually be banned from the instance, but i don’t know how to investigate such things. But .ml came up an awful lot when I was looking into how to join Lemmy, obviously, and I had no idea how bad the mod practices and ideological bend would be on what amounts to one of the “main” instances.
I’m on shitjustworks, which I really like. But before I knew how different instances worked, I just assumed Lemmy was Reddit power tripping mods 2.0 across all of Lemmy. I’m glad I persevered a little bit to get to more communities.
You are, for the next 7 days. This is your modlog actions on Lemmy.ml:
https://lemmy.ml/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=9504078
Some of that stuff would get you banned from shitjustworks though too - e.g. civility.
I had a conversation with the mod who deleted my comments for being uncivil. A troll reported me being an asshole to him, as he trolled. If you look at the deleted thread, you can see their deleted comments.
it’s not my proudest moment, but I firmly believe that assholes should he confronted by assholes, and I took it upon myself in that moment.
Aside from that single interaction, I have abided by the rules of the forum and been polite, within reason. But I have, without remorse, questioned bullshit and disinformation.
Well I hope it helps that now you know how to check your modlog actions:-). You put your name in the box, but the hard part is figuring out which modlog even has the record of the event - though usually the instance where the community is located at.
Yeah I wonder how much assholery those admins bring upon themselves by being that way to others first, it’s like they almost do it on purpose and then use it as an excuse - e.g. Russia will say “poor me, the Ukraine is attacking me, it’s so not fair boo-hoo” :-P.
It’s because they’re on the same instance as you (and me)
Ooh, good to know. I’m still a noob here, lol
OP wants to feel like a saviour of us all from tankies.
Not sure what solutions you suggest
That’s why I included this section in my post:
And the discussions for finding/creating alternative communities on other instances: https://lemmy.world/post/16235541
They were wondering about the dev thing. Having a lead dev be an asshole isn’t that big of a deal. It’s open source, so any code that would somehow benefit them would also benefit you.
OP has been here two months, and they were shocked to find out an instance literally named after Karl Marx and John Lennin would pretend to be on the left but support authoritarian governments…
And they assume since they just “discovered” it, no one else knows.
… John Lennin?
Father of the gulag, founder of the Beatles
“Imagine no private ownership of the means of production, I wonder if you can”
I’m the walrus
It’s crazy to think about, but even after all these years, people insist he was bigger than Jesus
Imagine all the Pol Pot…
John Lennin. Rofl Mao
It’s as if people are joining and learning things.
Been here an almost year and literally just learned that from the above post.
It’s not named after Lemmy from Motörhead?
They probably mean the
.mlpart.
I had to block a handful of bad actors, maybe around 15, and don’t have much issue now. As usual it’s a very small, very vocal minority that’s doing most of the shitting in the pool. Unfortunately many are also mods of communities like politics@lemmy.ml, so generally not subscribing to stuff there is a good policy too.
Yeah, like linus is a known cunt to work with, i’ll still update my kernel regularly though
Not defending his behavior but I would note that he has been actively seeking to remedy his cunty-ness after becoming aware of how problematic it was and the problematic people that it attracted.
It’s the Vampire Castle phenomenon of online leftist spaces. One dev and instance admin of Lemmy has problematic personal beliefs, so now we aren’t allowed to be on Lemmy anymore because it’s failed an ideological purity test that OP decided for the rest of us. In other news, Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia, is a hardcore Ayn Rand style freemarket libertarian, so I guess we should all ditch wikipedia and each buy a 400 pound Encyclopedia Britannica set. Because that’ll show him to believe things I think are terrible.
I got a 14 day instance ban for calling a tankie a tankie on ML. Their authoritarian ideology is dangerous and it needs to be quarantined.
You are more than welcome to block any and all content from that instance. You can do this by going under your user settings and clicking on the “Blocks” tab and searching for lemmy.ml in the Block Instance section. That’s the thing about Federated content. You have the power to selectively engage with the content of your choosing. You don’t get to quarantine others because there is no centralized authority that gets to say “your instance gets stuck in an internet ghetto where it isn’t allowed to interact with other users.” You have to quarantine yourself by excluding content. If that doesn’t work for you, then maybe it’s less that you dislike their authoritarian ideology and more that it isn’t the same flavor as your own.
I blocked ML months ago. I’m still going to keep calling for large instances to defederate, because sticking my fingers in my ears doesn’t make the problem go away.
Yes, that will happen when the “problem” lives solely between your ears.
It’s all so melodramatic. I’ll take a jaunt into the comments sections of these posts once in awhile to see what the libs are clutching their pearls over now. Today we have:
Oh nooooo, a dev is a ban happy shithead! How unusual and extreme! Better raise the banner and gather the troops, the tankies are coming for us all! We must defederate and/or fork a parallel Lemmy because only tankies have weird ban happy power trips! This will solve all the issues!
On the bright side, block op and the surprisingly small number of the other more vocal tankie drama lords and it gets a lot quieter.
On the bright side, block op and the surprisingly small number of the other more vocal tankie drama lords and it gets a lot quieter.
Getting worked up over a Lemmy instance upholding principles misaligned to yours, while Lemmy constitutes 3% of the Fediverse and the Fetiverse is still unknown to the vast majority, is a pointless waste of energy.
Yeah, I honestly give very few shits about the political opinions of the lemmy devs as long as it doesn’t taint the project itself -and if it did at some point in the future, forking an open-source project is stupidly easy.
I even donate a smidge of money to the development effort via librepay - man does need it to live after all.
Dessalines & Nutomic put a lot of effort into building and maintaining the lemmy codebase. I respect that.
Dessalines & Nutomic put a lot of effort into building and maintaining the lemmy codebase. I respect that.
I’ll add that they’re also generally quite pleasant when I see them on Lemmy. And I haven’t seen either of them involved in being ban-happy. Some will argue otherwise based upon misconstruing the relationship between FLOSS devs and FLOSS consumers as a business/customer relationship (expecting customer service and product manager input on software that’s donated free of charge). But, I think that those folks are just not yet familiar with how FLOSS development works.
I may not agree with the devs political view, but I think their work developing lemmy is excellent and made me subscribe to monthly donation on opencollective. Lemmy is an open source project where the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used, as evidenced by so many lemmy instances defederating from lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. Their political belief won’t affect other instance.
I’ve seen a few posts and comments made by ‘tankies’ (I had to look up this term, as I’ve never seen it outside of Lemmy) and I don’t think there should be such a moral panic about them. It implies that everyone is so impressionable that they can’t be exposed to a minority fringe political opinion without being instantly turned into a rabid and dangerous extremist.
See something you don’t agree with? Ignore it. Downvote it. Block it if you really want to. So many people seem to come here just looking for a fight with other users or to get some general outrage out of their system, whether it’s ‘tankies’ or ‘anti-tankies’. Just relax. Lemmy is diverse and ever-expanding; there’s loads of fun, interesting and positive stuff to see and talk about here.
I will mention that smaller, niche communities have way more harmonious and interesting discussions. This suggests to me that the majority of aggro comes from people who are just logging in and scrolling down the ‘front page’ for something to do. It’s worth putting in a bit of effort to find specific topics you’re interested in and then looking at the feed of your subscriptions. It’s a much better experience for everyone.
Edited for bad grammarring.
Regarding lemmy.ml: yes, you should avoid it. It does not make sense to create politically-neutral communities on a politically-oriented instance.
Regarding Dessalines: The great thing about Lemmy is that I don’t need to give a shit about the lead developer’s politics, because he’s not in control of how Lemmy is used, and if he ever tried some kind of heinous cross-instance power grab, it would get shut down before it got started.
Regarding the cognitive dissonance required to A) value decentralization of power, and also B) support the CCP: 🤦
Regarding the cognitive dissonance required to A) value decentralization of power, and also B) support the CCP: 🤦
One of the tenets of Marxism-Leninism is that a dictatorship is required to guide the proletariat to communist society (which would be completely stateless). So the dissonance is inherent in Leninist dogma 🤷
It’s basically the underpants gnomes meme
- Dictatorship
- ???
- Utopia!
What about Marxist-Lemmyism?
Regarding the cognitive dissonance required to A) value decentralization of power, and also B) support the CCP: 🤦
It’s simple: People who gain from misinformation create platforms that empower bots and sockpuppets.
Bingo
Anyone else seeing the irony of objecting to ml politics being discussed on a platform built by a ml for discussing and organizing around ml politics?
I had my first ever comment, in decades of forums/reddit usage, get mod deleted because I was critical of China and the USSR. It was a fairly mild criticism. That action turned me off the whole instance.
Sad that you chose an .ml community to come back to. You can’t talk about Russia or China at all without getting deleted there, unless it’s saying that Tienamen Square never happened or something like that.
They learn from who they are worshipping. Exactly how the CCP control the narratives.
They learn from who
they are worshippingpays them and might disappear them if they say the wrong thing.
Same here, but they tried to claim I called a Steam Deck a “Rice Burner” as a racist insult when I randomly chose “rice” as the title for this meme to fill the mandatory title block.
Like, bro? Even if that was my intent, which it wasn’t even a term I had ever seen applied to a computer, it doesn’t make sense.
I looked at your downvotes because I see you at -2… Wear this like a badge of honor!
Most of the downvotes I see are lemmy.ml users. Which I find funny. Rice exists in so many countries outside of china, but because it reminds them of China it’s instantly bad since you’re using is negatively. It’s absurd.
LMAO!! Thank you! I’ve got them blocked but the fact they’re even voting me down is silly. It wasn’t even an insult because if I was even mentioning “ricing” it was the better of two options.
wow, you can see who up/downvoted a post? how do I do that?
Host your own lemmy instance. Or use Kbin(shows up as likes).
For some reason they decided that even though other activitypub services can see it just fine, lemmy will not show these things to normal users.
I thought it only showed Reduces from Kbin users? But then Kbin.social stopped showing any Reduces at all, and now Kbin.social is defunct for several days.
I tried Kbin.earth and Fedia.io but both show the Reduces as greyed out, at least for https://lemmy.world/comment/10490177 that I used as a test. I will try creating a login and see if that unlocks it.
Apparently its to do with a sport car scene where the Chinese couldn’t afford such luxuries but still want to participate and westerners or Americans would call these vehicle mods ricing
Now with linux theming we call ricing and that carries a racist connotation. How racist it actually is I am unsure but either way thats the reason people get upset.
To me it is weird that every day on lemmy I see new posts complaining about all tankies… but I never actually see any of the content they are complaining about. And outside of lemmy, I never see or hear the word ‘tankies’ used at all. I’ve asked a couple of people I know in real life if they ever seen discussions about it in their parts of the internet, and none of them people I’ve asked have ever heard the word before.
So… like I said, I find it weird. It’s like some kind of lemmy boogieman.
I’m glad that this is the controversy on Lemmy, and not things like Reddit had with r/JailBait.
I’m perfectly fine with just avoiding interactions with lemmy.ml communities. They can exist, even if I disagree with them. And if I wanted to participate, I’d probably be welcome so long as I follow the rules. Unlike r/Conservative, which required proving yourself to the mods to get a pass to enter or something…lol
But yes, it’s definitely good to know what the .ml stands for, and to keep that in mind whenever one sees Lemmy.ml.
I’m perfectly fine with just avoiding interactions with lemmy.ml communities
I would be fine with that too. If the instance was just tankie people talking tankie bullshit, like lemmygrad or hexbear, it would be easy to ignore. Unfortunately it’s not that simple.
The problem is that lemmy.ml has a more privileged status in the fediverse: being the first Lemmy instance in existence it still holds quite a number of popular communities that are still frequented by people from the whole fediverse, and the tankies wield their power there as well. Like literally: make a disliked comment on /c/memes and you get banned from /c/Technology, /c/linux, /c/Progammer Humor, /c/Mechanical Keyboards,… and all your other favorite communities on lemmy.ml as well. This actually happened to me.
A second issue is that the mods make efforts to hide the censorship that they are doing, because they know it’s not a good look. If you examine the modlog over there you’ll see that the first half of the page is like a day’s worth of moderation activities, and the second half covers 4 years. So where’s the rest? The many controversial comment removals and bans that happened a few days ago on the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre, and who knows what else, have all been disappeared.
So yes, I think it is very important that people are being made aware of this and I also think a concerted effort should be made to move bona fide communities away from an instance ruled by bad faith actors.
So yes, I think it is very important that people are being made aware of this and I also think a concerted effort should be made to move bona fide communities away from an instance ruled by bad faith actors.
Yeah, this sounds perfectly reasonable.
It’s not like it was some grand conspiracy to make all those communities communist. It’s just how Lemmy originated. As Lemmy grows, it’s bound to get more communities on other instances, and if enough people hate the moderation on ML, then the other communities’ growth will start to outpace the originals. It’s not like Reddit where there are default subs (afaik).
I suspect there’s way worse on the fediverse than Jailbait. There was a list posted a few months back of all the most defederated instance, and tankies didn’t even get a look in. I didn’t dare click them. Some of the domain names alone made me feel like I was going on a watchlist for even knowing about them.
Eh I went to a bunch of them and nothing horrible, the most morally objectionable was loli but it was all drawn
I don’t doubt it. There’s definitely a difference when something is in the Fediverse though rather than all hosted on the same servers. It’s a lot easier to say “We don’t condone this” when a server is defederated from the gross ones.
I’m glad that this is the controversy on Lemmy, and not things like Reddit had with r/JailBait.
Lemmy already had a round of that, specifically over loli. It’s why a lot of instances block burghit.moe - they don’t ban loli and have a few loli specific subs.
The only other Lemmy server I know of that allows loli subs is the rad queer one and it’s tiny and also blocked by many other instances, though I don’t know if that’s for the loli or the general rad queer thing. Really, likely both.
Yeah, though I think there’s a difference between Reddit having it vs. Lemmy having it. Especially with popular/general instances defederating from the scummy ones
The main difference is that you can choose to use an instance that doesn’t.
But to a user of an instance that defederated burggit it’s more or less a direct parallel to r/jailbait, just with the extra step of asking the instance to confirm and losing the rest of the instance and not just the one community.
And if I wanted to participate, I’d probably be welcome so long as I follow the rules.
Not only the rules, you also have to avoid critizing the dominant ideology, otherwise you will get at best dog pilled, at worse harassed and censored by moderation.
Honestly, is that different here? Dogpiling is the rage everywhere. It’s better than reddit, but you still have a hard time if you even question something that follows the dominant ideology here. And God forbid you actually read any of the articles people post and point out that commenter’s are just making shit up to fit that ideology.
you will get at best dog pilled
What’s a dog pill? Lol
I subbed to r/conservative myself I tend to like to browse most political subreddits left and right. I didn’t see any “proving yourself to get a pass to enter” I just remember making a comment on a post about Tiananmen square on the anniversary clicking the join icon then getting 2 automod messages one telling me that I’m banned from justiceserved and another alerting me that I’ve subbed to r/conservative.as simple as that. I think you might be refering to r/blackpeopletwitter which uh I think this screenshot should speak for itself
In order to participate in the vast majority of active r/conservative threads (any tagged “Flaired Users Only”, which 9 of the top 10 posts right now are), you need to first pass a mod purity test to prove you’re “conservative enough”, it’s not a serious place and is mostly just dumb Facebook-tier memes and poor quality screenshots of news headlines or random tweets
R/conservative had the habit of locking most comment threads to members only. It may have been an exclude instead of include list.
It was an include list, from what I recall, that required signing up for having a mod go through your message/post history, lol
No, I don’t think I mixed up r/Conservative with r/BlackPeopleTwitter…lmao
I take issue with both the authoritarian left and authoritarian right: being an apologist for Soviet Russia as well as being an apologist for the USA is not OK in my opinion.
I find it futile to take a position on which is worse because that just gives space to be an apologist for one that’s “less bad”. I see this happening in this thread right now.
Should I defederate from both lemmy.world and lemmy.ml? Of course not. In fact, I find both to be more tolerable and cooperative than reddit today.
Glad I don’t know wtf this is about.
Yeah. Please note that phtn.app dev refused to change the default instance. I have moved back to Voyager since.
Edit: this has been resolved now. Photon has changed default instance to lemmy.ee
I never refused. In fact, it’s already been changed to lemm.ee
I haven’t announced it, yet, but I’ve been testing ph.lemmy.cafe for some time now if that’s your cup of tea.
Thanks. Photon is decent but I would use Voyager instead out of principle. Would you add v.lemmy.cafe?
I’ll consider it. Need to manage the available resources a bit first.
They’re going to change it soon.
Source: I asked them on matrix
That’s good news. I will move back to Photon when that happens. Thanks for letting me know.
Done
Thank you very much! Now I feel much more comfortable using Photon.
Thanks again for developing it and making it open source.
Thank you
He’s not praising an ethnic cleansing. He elsewhere has claimed that the ethnic cleansing/concentration camp narrative is entirely western propaganda and isn’t happening at all. Instead, it’s some sort of… Incarceration, deradicalization, and rehabilitation program? Hell, I don’t know.
Either way, he already does and says enough things to criticize, let’s not make up more. It just makes us look just as dumb.
And you linking to a direct malware .zip package.
Lemmy.zip name is really unfortunate
The whole .zip TLD is really unfortunate.
Yeah, people pushed Google on that one specifically and they still went and did it. It should be removed.
As a worker in the Cybersecurity space, it’s absolutely fantastic for job security.
Imagine making a claim like this and being so lazy that you couldn’t even throw it into virus total to confirm your hypothesis
Stop making wild ass assumptions and trying to peddle it as truth. It makes you look bad
